[Vision2020] Is John Calvin an Intolerista?
Art Deco
deco at moscow.com
Thu Nov 3 13:17:58 PST 2005
Donovan educates us:
"The question implies falsely that "GOD" and "GOOD" are two separate independent entities. They are not. They are the same thing."
[1] At the risk of appearing to be impolite (very out of character), the above statements attempting to transfer Donovan's superior wisdom to we Neanderthals, appear, like some of his other statements, to belong to that class of linguistic anomalies which includes the following:
"Barbequed integers forge Jesus"
However, for the sake of the argument below, let us assume that Donovan has presented an intelligible statement.
[2] It is also obvious that in asserting "God and Good are the same thing.", Donovan is making a knowledge claim. However, he offers no evidence or proof for the truth of this sweeping statement with its titanic ontological import. While Donovan may be Moscow's Foremost Authority, I, for one being old and slow-witted, would have appreciated some evidence/proof for the truth of the statement.
However, in order to give Donovan as much credibility and consideration as charitably possible, let us ignore the two above problems.
[3] Preliminary observation: Suppose it were asserted that Guido and Nathan are the same person. Then in any non-meta-language statement about either, the words, "Guido" and "Nathan" are interchangeable without changing the meaning/import or truth conditions of the statement. Example:
If "Guido smells like a decayed muskrat." is true, then "Nathan smells like a decayed muskrat." is also true. Further, both statements have the same meaning and the same truth conditions.
To assist Michael in his spiritual development we will now use the inductive method, which he highly recommended earlier, to test Donovan's hypothesis.
Briefly: The inductive method includes testing a hypothesis by deducing expected observations from it. The truth of the statements embodying the expected observations are tested. If even one of statements embodying an expected observation is false, then the hypothesis is false by Modus Tollens http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_tollens.
Here we go!
Hypothesis: God and Good are the same thing.
Deductions from hypothesis: If God and Good are the same thing, then the words "God" and "Good" can be used interchangeably (as in the example above) in statements without any change of meaning or truth conditions.
Hence, the following resultant statements have the same meaning and truth conditions as their obvious originals:
"...and good saith, 'Let light be;' and light is. And good seeth the light that it is God..." [Young's Literal Translation of the Bible]
"My country is the world, and my religion is to do God." [Thomas Paine]
"Every religion is good that teaches man to be God." [Thomas Paine]
"Good damn! That was a God piece of ash." [Calvin Lane III]
Hmmm.
Interchanging the words "God" and "Good" in the original statements appears to change their meaning and truth conditions in the resultant statements. Hence, the deduction from the hypothesis that the original statements and their substituted resultants would mean the same and have the same truth conditions is false. Applying Modus Tollens...
Alas then, the hypothesis is false.
Back to the drawing board, Donovan.
{Note to readers: Feel free to post your favorite statements resulting from substitutions.}
Donovan boasts:
"We already went over this in junior college."
Note to Donovan: Perhaps you should sue your junior college for malpractice.
Note to Michael: To increase the probability of success in your spiritual journey, avoid Donovan's junior college and like institutions.
Fresh from seeing a very large great-horned owl,
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>; "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 5:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is John Calvin an Intolerista?
> Wayne,
>
> What you fail to understand is that the genius of the
> quote:
>
> "Is X good because God says so or does God says so
> because X is (intrinsically) good.,"
>
> is the not the answer, which is obvious, what is
> genius is in the creation of the question.
>
> The question implies falsely that "GOD" and "GOOD" are
> two separate independent entities. They are not. They
> are the same thing.
>
> We already went over this in junior college.
>
> DJA
>
>
>
>
> --- Art Deco <deco at moscow.com> wrote:
>
>> Neither Michael nor Donvan apparently understand the
>> problem created by:
>>
>> "Is X good because God says so or does God says so
>> because X is
>> (intrinsically) good."
>>
>> The first extant extended discussion of this dilemma
>> occurred in Plato's
>> dialogue
>>
>> Euthyphro
>> http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/euthyfro.html
>>
>> Anthony Flew is one modern philosopher who has
>> talked about this dilemma.
>>
>> If Donovan, Michael, or anyone else wish to gain
>> some insight into this
>> problem, then they should first read and understand
>> what transpires in
>> Euthyphro.
>>
>> After that, they may wish to read some of Anthony
>> Flew's many remarks on
>> this subject.
>>
>> To find such remarks, Google:
>>
>> Euthyphro "anthony flew"
>>
>>
>> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
>> deco at moscow.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Donovan Arnold"
>> <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Michael" <metzler at moscow.com>;
>> <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 4:11 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is John Calvin an
>> Intolerista?
>>
>>
>> > "X is good because God says so and God says so
>> because
>> > X is intrinsically good. Seems like one just
>> comes
>> > along with the other with an eternal Trinity.
>> Right?"
>> > --- Michael Metzler
>> >
>> > Well put Michael. Many do not get they are the
>> same.
>> > All things obedient to God's will are good, and
>> things
>> > against it are evil. Good cannot go against God's
>> will
>> > by definition of the term "Good". Wayne's question
>> is
>> > like asking us to draw two parallel lines that
>> > intersect or to describe a circle that has a
>> radius
>> > greater than its circumference.
>> >
>> > --DJA
>> >
>> >
>> >> Wayne Wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> "you have ignored the problem discussed by Plato
>> and
>> >> recently discussed on
>> >> this forum:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Is X good merely because god says so or does god
>> say
>> >> so because X is
>> >> (intrinsically) good?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> W. T. Jones also discusses this problem in his
>> >> chapters on Plato."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Me:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> This is a good example of how the Classical
>> >> Christian God is a good way to
>> >> address the more general problems of any god-x.
>> X
>> >> is good because God says
>> >> so and God says so because X is intrinsically
>> good.
>> >> Seems like one just
>> >> comes along with the other with an eternal
>> Trinity.
>> >> Right?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --Michael Metzler
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >
>>
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