[Vision2020] Is John Calvin an Intolerista?

Tue Nov 1 16:24:15 PST 2005

Wayne, Gabe, et al,

I'm a little surprised that whoever organized the discussion on 
"Predestination:  Damnable Heresy?" was so broad (careless?) in presenting 
it that way.

It may seem like splitting hairs, but no Christian doubts that 
"predestination" is true -- that's not the issue.  The debate is on what 
God's foreknowledge is based upon -- His "good pleasure" in saving some and 
damning others (Calvinism), or the volitional response of those who are 
presented with the Gospel (Arminian).

I agree that most people, Christians included, think that "predestination" 
is the point of contention, but the real argument is predestination on what 
basis.  I reject the Calvinistic interpretation of Calvin's own five points, 
but I'm not Arminian, either.  I'm solidly, if a bit dully, in the middle.  
Most Christians fall somewhere in between and hold to our predestination in 
Christ, whether leaning toward the 5-point Calvinistic T U L I P or the 
Wesleyan "free will" of the believer.

OK, off to the kitchen, where I believe my son is destined to unload the 
dishwasher while exercising his free will to keep putting it off . . .

keely

From: "Art Deco" <deco at moscow.com>
To: "Vision 2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Is John Calvin an Intolerista?
Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2005 15:31:40 -0800

Gabe, et al,

The problem that Calvin struggled with is that of the alleged Christian 
God's foreknowledge and whether freewill (non-predestination) exists.

The problem, stripped of all its centuries of theological obscuration, is 
quite simple:

When this alleged God (allegedly) created humankind on earth either [1] God 
did not or [2] God did know of the consequences of its/her/his actions.

[1]    If this alleged God did not know the consequences of its/her/his 
actions,  having allegedly given humankind freewill (the freedom to freely 
choose their actions, i.e., the actions of humankind are not predetermined 
by this alleged God), then God is not omniscient (all-knowing).

On the other hand:

[2]    If this alleged God did know the consequences of its/her/his actions 
such as the insane amount of pain, suffering, misery, etc its/her/his 
alleged act of creation wrought, then God is not omnibenevolent (perfectly 
good).

In either case, the alleged God which certain Christian sects insist is 
omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, cannot exist since omniscience 
and omnibenevolence are mutually exclusive.

The above represents no original thinking on my part.  This dilemma has been 
discussed since at least the times of Plato.  For example, Boethius 
described this dilemma quite incisively in the early part of the fifth 
century BC.

What is most instructive and character revealing about Gabe's announcement 
is that Christ Church Cultmaster Douglas Wilson is attempting to delude his 
flock and others into thinking that he, of all past and present humankind, 
has solved the problem.

Can you say "Extreme Egomania"?

Can you say "Ultimate Hubris"?

Cheers,

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabe Rench" <k5grench at hotmail.com>
To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 2:37 PM
Subject: [Vision2020] Is John Calvin an Intolerista?

 > For those who are interested,
 >
 > Topic: Is John Calvin an Intolerista?
 >
 > -The Burning of Servetus
 > -Theocracy in Geneva
 > -Predestination: damnable heresy?
 >
 > Speaker: Doug Wilson, Pastor of Christ Church
 >
 > Where: U of I, SUB Silver and Gold room
 > Time: 7:30pm on Wednesday November 2nd
 >
 >
 > <html><DIV>Because of Him </DIV>Gabriel Rench</html>
 >
 >
 > _____________________________________________________
 > List services made available by First Step Internet,
 > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
 >               http://www.fsr.net
 >          mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
 > ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
 >
 >

_____________________________________________________
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