[Vision2020] Republicans Jump From Sinking Ship
David M. Budge
dave at davebudge.com
Mon Jun 13 14:53:23 PDT 2005
Ted, Wayne, everyone.
I can't say that I'm a Bush supporter, nor can I say that I was, or am
currently an Iraq war hawk. Leading up to the enterprise I was deeply
conflicted. On the one hand my libertarian leanings make me a
non-interventionist. On the other hand, the neoconservative opinions of
Chris Hitchens were really quite compelling in the need to intervene for
the sake of Iraqi (especially Kurdish) self-determination.
Two general camps of extreme prognosticators existed before the war;
optimist and pessimists. I know that this may over simplify the
demographics but it is clear in my mind that the administration
neconservatives took the enterprise to be quick and cheep while the
anti-war voices were filled with fear of mass casualties of coalition
troops that may soon be walking into clouds of VX nerve gas and an
ensuing quagmire. My opinion at the time was that something between
those two extremes would be the reality. Extremism has a historically
uncanny habit of forecasting what will not happen.
I still hold this view that things are not as good nor as bad as their
potential. Amnesty international once estimated that Saddam was
responsible for roughly 30,000 deaths a year over his last 10 years. Add
to that the deaths attributable to UN economic sanctions and, not
withstanding the gruesomeness of the thought, Iraqis level of suffering
may indeed be less today than it was 4 years ago. But I understand this
this is conjecture. It may be years before we know the truth.
Unlike Wayne, I do not hold that we were "lied" to about pre-war Iraq.
That said, I don't let the Bush administration off the hook for the many
problems that may well have been avoided with a more competent staff and
I am deeply concerned with the reported level of corruption and waste of
taxpayer dollars. That, however, is so much water under the bridge.
But I also find that Americans, having an unquenchable need for
immediate gratification, tend to lose perspective. As the Iraqi Prime
Minister recently said "You can't fix in six months what it took 35
years to destroy." I also don't think there exists a military solution
to an insurgency (although I think the term "insurgency" is quite
misused in this context.) The solution will, if it comes to pass, be a
political solution. Hopefully it will move forward before civil /
sectarian war breaks out into a full rampage.
Anyhow, for all the nay sayers and pessimists, there is a good blog
written by an Australian named Arthur Chrenkoff. You can find it here
http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/06/good-news-from-iraq-part-29.html.
I'm encourage by what he reported today:
"Recent polling data shows that fully two-thirds of Iraqis believe their
country is headed in the right direction, Saboon said. While a poll in
January showed only 11 percent of Sunni Muslims in Iraq shared that
view, that percentage has since grown to 40, he said..."
Chrenkoff has spent the last two years looking for good news in Iraq.
From time to time he finds some. He is worth reading if for nothing
else than the fact that he really is the best source for the political
activity on the ground. He may not change anyone's opinions, but at
least those opinions may be much more well informed.
db
tbertruss at aol.com wrote:
>
> Wayne:
>
> I only posted an article with other opinions (some of which I agree
> with, some of which I don't), from US CongressPeople showing an
> increasing fracture in the unity of the Republican party on the Iraq
> mess. No doubt in part this is just because they want to be
> re-elected, and there is increasing evidence the American people are
> growing very tired of what looks like an endless occupation and war
> that will result in an endless stream of dead US soldiers. Military
> recruitment problems alone are a major problem, and bringing back the
> draft has serious political consequences.
>
> Iraq was already a colossal and complex problem before we invaded and
> occupied the county. There may be no solution which can avoid a lot
> of bloodshed and chaos, but our presence is now fueling an insurgency
> that no doubt is causing bloodshed and chaos. The best option may be
> to attempt to internationalize the efforts to bring peach and
> stability to Iraq, taking the focus off what many Iraqis view as a U.
> S. takeover of their country. This option is now very problematic
> given that many of our strongest allies do not want to help us out of
> the mess they tried to stop us from getting into, allies who were
> politically and economically attacked by the US for not invading Iraq
> along with the U.S.
>
> Since the Bush supporters in the audience implicitly supported Bush's
> policies in dragging the U.S. into this ill advised war in Iraq by
> giving him a second term with their vote, perhaps they can find the
> solution.
>
> Any Bush supporters want to offer their wisdom regarding this issue, I
> mean besides just killing more Iraqis and U. S. soldiers on and on
> with no end in sight?
>
> Ted Moffett
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Art Deco <deco at moscow.com>
> To: Vision 2020 <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Mon, 13 Jun 2005 15:13:28 -0700
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Republicans Jump From Sinking Ship
>
> Ted,
>
> Now that we have really screwed up Iraq based on a pack of lies,
> killed and maimed more people than Saddam could have done in his
> wildest fantasies, lost the trust of a passel of people worldwide, and
> destroyed a great deal of infrastructure -- what is the ethical thing
> for us to do?
>
> I am not disagreeing with the post you made necessarily, but I think
> we might have a problem of colossal magnitude/complexity here.
>
> Anyone with suggestions?
>
> Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
> deco at moscow.com <javascript:parent.ComposeTo('deco at moscow.com');>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tbertruss at aol.com
> <javascript:parent.ComposeTo('Tbertruss at aol.com');>
> To: vision2020 at moscow.com
> <javascript:parent.ComposeTo('vision2020 at moscow.com');>
> Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 PM
> Subject: [Vision2020] Republicans Jump From Sinking Ship
>
>
> All:
>
> I'll let the words of Republican conservative Rep. Walter Jones,
> known for the renaming of "french fries" to "freedom fries,"
> express some of my views on the Bush administration's cruel and
> senseless Iraq policy. Ah, it's wonderful to feel such a bond of
> common ideas with a North Carolina conservative Republican:
>
> Rep. Walter Jones, a North Carolina conservative, said on ABC's
> "This Week" that he would offer legislation this week setting a
> timetable for the withdrawal from Iraq.
>
> "I voted for the resolution to commit the troops, and I feel that
> we've done about as much as we can do," said Jones, who coined the
> phrase "freedom fries" to lash out at the French for opposing the
> Iraq invasion.
>
> Jones, a member of the House of Representatives Armed Services
> Committee, said "primarily the neoconservatives" in the
> administration were to blame for flawed war planning.
>
> "The reason of going in for weapons of mass destruction, the
> ability of the Iraqis to make a nuclear weapon, that's all been
> proven that it was never there," he said. Jones joins some of
> Congress' most liberal Democrats in demanding a deadline to
> withdraw troops from a conflict they said has been too costly in
> U.S. lives and money.
>
> Entire article at this link and also below:
>
> http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id 050613000009990004
> <http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id%20050613000009990004>
>
> Updated: 11:35 AM EDT
> Republican Lawmakers Urge Shift in Iraq Plans
> By Vicki Allen, Reuters
>
> WASHINGTON (June 13) - A Republican congressman called for a
> deadline to pull U.S. troops from Iraq, while some other members
> of President Bush's party urged on Sunday that his administration
> come to grips with a persistent insurgency and revamp Iraq policy.
>
> Rep. Walter Jones, a North Carolina conservative, said on ABC's
> "This Week" that he would offer legislation this week setting a
> timetable for the withdrawal from Iraq.
>
> "I voted for the resolution to commit the troops, and I feel that
> we've done about as much as we can do," said Jones, who coined the
> phrase "freedom fries" to lash out at the French for opposing the
> Iraq invasion.
>
> Other Republicans on television talk shows joined Democrats in
> criticizing the administration for playing down the insurgency,
> while overestimating the ability of Iraq's fledgling forces to
> fight without U.S. soldiers in the lead and failing to plan for
> the post-invasion occupation.
>
> "The insurgency is alive and well. We underestimated the viability
> of the insurgency," Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina
> Republican, said on CBS' Face the Nation. He said the
> administration has "been slow to adjust when it comes to troop
> strength and supporting our troops."
>
> Graham said the Army is contending with a serious shortfall in
> recruiting "because this war is going sour in terms of word of
> mouth from parents and grandparents." He said "if we don't adjust,
> public opinion is going to keep slipping away."
>
> Jones, a member of the House of Representatives Armed Services
> Committee, said "primarily the neoconservatives" in the
> administration were to blame for flawed war planning.
>
> "The reason of going in for weapons of mass destruction, the
> ability of the Iraqis to make a nuclear weapon, that's all been
> proven that it was never there," he said.
>
> Jones joins some of Congress' most liberal Democrats in demanding
> a deadline to withdraw troops from a conflict they said has been
> too costly in U.S. lives and money.
>
> According to a new Gallup Poll, nearly six in 10 Americans say the
> United States should withdraw some or all of its troops from Iraq,
> up from 49 percent who held that view in February, USA Today
> reported in its Monday edition.
>
> The Bush administration contends that setting a withdrawal date
> would fuel an insurgency that Vice President Dick Cheney recently
> said was in "the last throes."
>
> Graham opposed setting a date. "If the insurgents drive us out ...
> we've lost a big battle in the war on terror," he said.
>
> Jones said he was pushing the legislation because his "heart
> aches" at the nearly 1,700 U.S. soldiers killed and 12,000
> seriously wounded in Iraq. He said Iraqis should defend themselves
> once their forces are trained.
>
> Rep. Curt Weldon, a Pennsylvania Republican who just returned from
> Iraq, joined several Democrats saying the administration must be
> more candid and acknowledge that it could take about two years to
> train Iraqi forces to replace U.S. soldiers and allow a
> significant pullout."
>
> We can't come back to America and have our people being convinced
> that the Iraqi troops are prepared to take over, when they're
> not," he said on NBC's Meet the Press.
>
> Weldon also said the administration must "come to grips" with a
> rising insurgency, boosted by fighters from Syria and Iran, "which
> for some reason our intelligence community does not want to
> acknowledge or deal with."
>
> Weldon said he heard "a common theme" in Iraq that the largest
> number of foreign insurgents may be coming from Syria, but that
> "Iran overwhelmingly has the quality behind the insurgency."Sen.
>
> Chuck Hagel, a Nebraska Republican, said on CNN's Late Edition,
> that "many of us warned this administration before we ever put a
> boot on the ground" that it would face a long-term conflict. "We
> didn't have plans for it. And we are now where we are," he
> said.06-13-05 06:07 EDT
> -----------------------------------
>
> V2020 Post by Ted Moffett
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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