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Ted, Wayne, everyone.<br>
<br>
I can't say that I'm a Bush supporter, nor can I say that I was, or am
currently an Iraq war hawk. Leading up to the enterprise I was deeply
conflicted. On the one hand my libertarian leanings make me a
non-interventionist. On the other hand, the neoconservative opinions
of Chris Hitchens were really quite compelling in the need to intervene
for the sake of Iraqi (especially Kurdish) self-determination. <br>
<br>
Two general camps of extreme prognosticators existed before the war;
optimist and pessimists. I know that this may over simplify the
demographics but it is clear in my mind that the administration
neconservatives took the enterprise to be quick and cheep while the
anti-war voices were filled with fear of mass casualties of coalition
troops that may soon be walking into clouds of VX nerve gas and an
ensuing quagmire. My opinion at the time was that something between
those two extremes would be the reality. Extremism has a historically
uncanny habit of forecasting what will not happen. <br>
<br>
I still hold this view that things are not as good nor as bad as their
potential. Amnesty international once estimated that Saddam was
responsible for roughly 30,000 deaths a year over his last 10 years.
Add to that the deaths attributable to UN economic sanctions and, not
withstanding the gruesomeness of the thought, Iraqis level of suffering
may indeed be less today than it was 4 years ago. But I understand
this this is conjecture. It may be years before we know the truth.<br>
<br>
Unlike Wayne, I do not hold that we were "lied" to about pre-war Iraq.
That said, I don't let the Bush administration off the hook for the
many problems that may well have been avoided with a more competent
staff and I am deeply concerned with the reported level of corruption
and waste of taxpayer dollars. That, however, is so much water under
the bridge.<br>
<br>
But I also find that Americans, having an unquenchable need for
immediate gratification, tend to lose perspective. As the Iraqi Prime
Minister recently said <span style="font-family: trebuchet ms;">"You
can't fix in six months what it took 35 years to destroy." I also
don't think there exists a military solution to an insurgency (although
I think the term "insurgency" is quite misused in this context.) The
solution will, if it comes to pass, be a political solution. Hopefully
it will move forward before civil / sectarian war breaks out into a
full rampage.<br>
<br>
Anyhow, for all the nay sayers and pessimists, there is a good blog
written by an Australian named Arthur Chrenkoff. You can find it here
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/06/good-news-from-iraq-part-29.html">http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/06/good-news-from-iraq-part-29.html</a>.<br>
<br>
I'm encourage by what he reported today:<br>
<br>
"</span>Recent polling data shows that fully two-thirds of Iraqis
believe their
country is headed in the right direction, Saboon said. While a poll in
January showed only 11 percent of Sunni Muslims in Iraq shared that
view, that percentage has since grown to 40, he said..."<br>
<span style="font-family: trebuchet ms;"><br>
Chrenkoff has spent the last two years looking for good news in Iraq.
>From time to time he finds some. He is worth reading if for nothing
else than the fact that he really is the best source for the political
activity on the ground. He may not change anyone's opinions, but at
least those opinions may be much more well informed.<br>
<br>
db<br>
</span><br>
<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tbertruss@aol.com">tbertruss@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid8C73E8261BDC120-458-123FE@MBLK-M33.sysops.aol.com">
<div style="font-family: "Verdana"; font-size: 10pt;">
<div>
<div> </div>
<div>Wayne:</div>
<div> </div>
<div>I only posted an article with other opinions (some of which I
agree with, some of which I don't), from US <span class="correction"
id=""><span class="correction" id="">CongressPeople</span></span>
showing an increasing fracture in the unity of the Republican party on
the Iraq mess. No doubt in part this is just because they want to be
re-elected, and there is increasing evidence the American people are
growing very tired of what looks like an endless occupation and war
that will result in an endless stream of dead US <span
class="correction" id="">soldiers</span>. Military recruitment
problems alone are a major problem, and bringing back the draft has
serious political consequences.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Iraq was already a colossal and complex problem before we
invaded and occupied the county. There may be no solution which can
avoid a lot of bloodshed and chaos, but our presence is now fueling an <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">insurgency</span></span>
that no doubt is causing bloodshed and chaos. The best option may be
to attempt to <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction"
id="">internationalize</span></span> the efforts to bring peach and
stability to Iraq, taking the focus off what many <span
class="correction" id="">Iraqis</span> view as a U. S. takeover of
their country. This option is now very <span class="correction" id="">problematic</span>
given that many of our strongest <span class="correction" id="">allies</span>
do not want to help us out of the mess they tried to stop us from
getting into, allies who were politically and economically attacked by
the US for not invading Iraq along with the U.S.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Since the Bush supporters in the audience implicitly supported <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">Bush's</span></span>
policies in dragging the U.S. into this ill advised war in Iraq by
giving him a second term with their vote, perhaps they can find the
solution.</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Any Bush supporters want to offer their wisdom regarding this
issue, I mean besides just killing more <span class="correction" id=""><span
class="correction" id="">Iraqis</span></span> and U. S. soldiers on
and on with no end in sight?</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Ted <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction"
id="">Moffett</span></span></div>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Art Deco <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:deco@moscow.com"><deco@moscow.com></a><br>
To: Vision 2020 <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com"><vision2020@moscow.com></a><br>
Sent: Mon, 13 <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction"
id="">Jun</span></span> 2005 15:13:28 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Republicans Jump From Sinking Ship<br>
<br>
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<div><font size="4">Ted,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Now that we have really screwed up Iraq based on
a pack of lies, killed and maimed more people than <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">Saddam</span></span>
could have done in his wildest fantasies, lost the trust of a <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">passel</span></span>
of people worldwide, and destroyed a great deal of infrastructure --
what is the ethical thing for us to do?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">I am not disagreeing with the post you made
necessarily, but I think we might have a problem of colossal
magnitude/complexity here.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font size="4">Anyone with suggestions?</font></div>
<div><font size="4"><br>
Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)<br>
<a href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('deco@moscow.com');">deco@moscow.com</a><br>
</font></div>
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style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="Tbertruss@aol.com"
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('Tbertruss@aol.com');">Tbertruss@aol.com</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="vision2020@moscow.com"
href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('vision2020@moscow.com');">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, June 13, 2005 12:01 PM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b>
[Vision2020] Republicans Jump From Sinking Ship</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<font face="arial,helvetica"><font lang="0" face="Arial" size="2"
family="SANSSERIF" ptsize="10"><br>
All:<br>
<br>
I'll let the words of Republican conservative Rep. Walter Jones, known
for the renaming of "<span class="correction" id=""><span
class="correction" id="">french</span></span> fries" to "freedom
fries," express some of my views on the Bush administration's cruel and
senseless Iraq policy. Ah, it's wonderful to feel such a bond of
common ideas with a North Carolina conservative Republican: <br>
<br>
Rep. Walter Jones, a North Carolina conservative, said on <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">ABC's</span></span>
"This Week" that he would offer legislation this week setting a
timetable for the withdrawal from Iraq.<br>
<br>
"I voted for the resolution to commit the troops, and I feel that we've
done about as much as we can do," said Jones, who coined the phrase
"freedom fries" to lash out at the French for opposing the Iraq
invasion.<br>
<br>
Jones, a member of the House of Representatives Armed Services
Committee, said "primarily the <span class="correction" id=""><span
class="correction" id="">neoconservatives</span></span>" in the
administration were to blame for flawed war planning.<br>
<br>
"The reason of going in for weapons of mass destruction, the ability of
the <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">Iraqis</span></span>
to make a nuclear weapon, that's all been proven that it was never
there," he said. Jones joins some of Congress' most liberal Democrats
in demanding a deadline to withdraw troops from a conflict they said
has been too costly in U.S. lives and money.<br>
<br>
Entire article at this link and also below:<br>
<br>
<a
href="http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id%20050613000009990004"
target="_blank">http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.<span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">adp</span></span>?id
050613000009990004</a><br>
<br>
</font><font lang="0" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
face="Arial" color="#000000" size="2" family="SANSSERIF" ptsize="10"
back="#ffffff">Updated: 11:35 AM EDT<br>
Republican Lawmakers Urge Shift in Iraq Plans<br>
By <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">Vicki</span></span>
Allen, Reuters<br>
<br>
<span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">WASHINGTON</span></span>
(June 13) - A Republican congressman called for a deadline to pull U.S.
troops from Iraq, while some other members of President <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">Bush's</span></span>
party urged on Sunday that his administration come to grips with a
persistent <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction"
id="">insurgency</span></span> and revamp Iraq policy.<br>
<br>
Rep. Walter Jones, a North Carolina conservative, said on <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">ABC's</span></span>
"This Week" that he would offer legislation this week setting a
timetable for the withdrawal from Iraq.<br>
<br>
"I voted for the resolution to commit the troops, and I feel that we've
done about as much as we can do," said Jones, who coined the phrase
"freedom fries" to lash out at the French for opposing the Iraq
invasion.<br>
<br>
Other Republicans on television talk shows joined Democrats in
criticizing the administration for playing down the <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">insurgency</span></span>,
while overestimating the ability of <span class="correction" id=""><span
class="correction" id="">Iraq's</span></span> fledgling forces to
fight without U.S. soldiers in the lead and failing to plan for the
post-invasion occupation.<br>
<br>
"The <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">insurgency</span></span>
is alive and well. We underestimated the viability of the <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">insurgency</span></span>,"
Sen. Lindsey Graham, a South Carolina Republican, said on CBS' Face the
Nation. He said the administration has "been slow to adjust when it
comes to troop strength and supporting our troops."<br>
<br>
Graham said the Army is contending with a serious shortfall in
recruiting "because this war is going sour in terms of word of mouth
from parents and grandparents." He said "if we don't adjust, public
opinion is going to keep slipping away."<br>
<br>
Jones, a member of the House of Representatives Armed Services
Committee, said "primarily the <span class="correction" id=""><span
class="correction" id="">neoconservatives</span></span>" in the
administration were to blame for flawed war planning.</font><font
lang="0" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" face="Arial"
color="#000000" size="2" family="SANSSERIF" ptsize="10" back="#ffffff"><br>
<br>
"The reason of going in for weapons of mass destruction, the ability of
the <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">Iraqis</span></span>
to make a nuclear weapon, that's all been proven that it was never
there," he said.<br>
<br>
Jones joins some of Congress' most liberal Democrats in demanding a
deadline to withdraw troops from a conflict they said has been too
costly in U.S. lives and money.<br>
<br>
According to a new Gallup Poll, nearly six in 10 Americans say the
United States should withdraw some or all of its troops from Iraq, up
from 49 percent who held that view in February, USA Today reported in
its Monday edition.<br>
<br>
The Bush administration contends that setting a withdrawal date would
fuel an <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">insurgency</span></span>
that Vice President Dick Cheney recently said was in "the last throes."<br>
<br>
Graham opposed setting a date. "If the insurgents drive us out ...
we've lost a big battle in the war on terror," he said.<br>
<br>
Jones said he was pushing the legislation because his "heart aches" at
the nearly 1,700 U.S. soldiers killed and 12,000 seriously wounded in
Iraq. He said <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction"
id="">Iraqis</span></span> should defend themselves once their forces
are trained.<br>
<br>
Rep. Curt Weldon, a Pennsylvania Republican who just returned from
Iraq, joined several Democrats saying the administration must be more
candid and acknowledge that it could take about two years to train
Iraqi forces to replace U.S. soldiers and allow a significant <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">pullout</span></span>."<br>
<br>
We can't come back to America and have our people being convinced that
the Iraqi troops are prepared to take over, when they're not," he said
on <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">NBC's</span></span>
Meet the Press.<br>
<br>
Weldon also said the administration must "come to grips" with a rising <span
class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">insurgency</span></span>,
boosted by fighters from Syria and Iran, "which for some reason our
intelligence community does not want to acknowledge or deal with."<br>
<br>
Weldon said he heard "a common theme" in Iraq that the largest number
of foreign insurgents may be coming from Syria, but that "Iran
overwhelmingly has the quality behind the <span class="correction"
id=""><span class="correction" id="">insurgency</span></span>."Sen. <br>
<br>
Chuck <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">Hagel</span></span>,
a Nebraska Republican, said on <span class="correction" id=""><span
class="correction" id="">CNN's</span></span> Late Edition, that "many
of us warned this administration before we ever put a boot on the
ground" that it would face a long-term conflict. "We didn't have plans
for it. And we are now where we are," he said.06-13-05 06:07 EDT <br>
-----------------------------------<br>
<br>
<span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction" id="">V2020</span></span>
Post by Ted <span class="correction" id=""><span class="correction"
id="">Moffett</span></span></font> </font>
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