[Vision2020] RE: Religious Exemption: Alcohol, etc.

[Phil Nisbet]

Ted

I am already aware that the issue of freedpm of worship exists with regard 
this.  One would hope that considering that very issue, use of wine in a 
religious context would not end up being a case that required court action 
with all its attendent legal costs.

As for the use of University Property or other governmental facilities, Ted 
if we were talking about people getting free use or we were talking about 
government establishing a community religious observation I would be in 
concurance with you.  But as long as the University or the City rent 
facilities out to other organizations for them to use, I do not see where 
you think the problem is.

If you rent a facility or an apartment or a house or even a pasture, the 
facility during your time of occupancy is up to you to determine.

Since the University has rented the ground to other organizations and to 
other religious groups in the past, its hard to see how this one is any 
different.  They have also set rules that allow consumption of wine, so its 
presence is not a ban on wine in general, but is really there at the Kibbie 
Dome to keep drunken displays from happening at football games.

The trouble of seperation of religion from the state is indeed at issue 
here.  You and several others do not like these folks because of their 
religion, their particular beliefs.  The doctrine of seperation is there so 
that your distaste for them does not allow you to use the weight of the 
state and its police powers to supress them from doing what every other 
person has a free right to do.

If the University allows rental, and they do, and if the University rents to 
religious organizations, something that they also do, then barring one group 
from using rental property when others are allowed to is a direct breach of 
seperation of church and state.  That picking and chosing of what are 
acceptable religious groups is what the establishment clause is absolutely 
all about.

And Yed, where exactly do I "Why do you appear to insist that the government 
support your religious beliefs and rituals?  This is odd reasoning coming 
from a "libertarian."

Is it supporting my beliefs if I rent from them?  Seems to me that in that 
case I am paying money to them for use of a facility.  I do expect them to 
stay the heck out of my religious beliefs and rituals once I have paid my 
rent.  I would expect the same from Palouse Properties and simply because I 
rent from them does not give them the right to bar or deny me the right to 
practice my religion in my apartment.  It is no more Palouse Properties 
right to dictate my religious actions at home than it is from a governmental 
rentee.  If not, than kids would not be allowed to pray in their dorm rooms. 
  You might just want to look into landlord tenent to understand this.

So, Yes the libertarian in my will allow not onlyfor the CC to use 
facilities, but even for the Wiccans to pray on Public Property on Forest 
Lands.  Just as long as they rent or pay for the space, where the the harm 
to any belief in indivudal freedom or its maximization?

Phil Nisbet
>

>From: Tbertruss at aol.com
>To: pcnisbet1 at hotmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Religious Exemption: Alcohol, etc.
>Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2005 14:59:44 EDT
>
>Phil et. al.
>
>The following explanation of the issues regarding this debate on Christ
>Church, or any religion, using wine supplied to minors in a religious 
>ceremony on
>government tax payer supported property or buildings, should ease your
>concerns, Phil, unless you want to break down the separation of church and 
>state.
>
>First, I must correct one of your implications regarding the facts I stated
>regarding alcohol abuse and youth.
>
>It is not "supposedly a crime" to give alcohol to minors.  It is in fact a
>crime.  I did not write or enact these laws.  To point out that supplying
>alcohol to minors is against the law is not "preaching," it is stating a 
>fact.  And
>all the data I provided on the abuse of alcohol by minors and youth, and 
>the
>marketing of alcohol to youth, is not "preaching," again, it is stating 
>facts.
>
>Now, on to some essential facts and principles involved in religious use of
>drugs:
>
>http://www.lectlaw.com/files/drg25.htm
>
>It is well known that in fact religious ceremonial use of certain quite
>otherwise illegal drugs is allowed with a religious exemption, as you can 
>read at
>the web link above.  I am sure that your use of alcohol in the Jewish 
>religion
>for ceremonial use by minors can be or already is protected by the 
>guarantee
>of religious freedom that our big bad evil government and the US 
>Constitution
>provides.
>
>However, consider that the legal guidelines for the religious use of public
>taxpayer (i. e. government, as in the Idaho State government or the US 
>Federal
>government) supported property or institutions, given the principle of the
>separation of church and state, which is wisely insisted upon by the US
>Constitution to protect everyone's religious freedoms, suggests it is 
>unwise and/or
>illegal to allow breaking the laws regarding supplying alcohol to minors 
>with a
>religious exemption in a religious ceremony on or in public taxpayer 
>supported
>buildings or institutions.
>
>I know that there are serious efforts underway to break down the separation
>of church and state as a strict legal principle, but I think this principle
>should be enforced rather strictly to avoid the slippery slope of 
>endorsement of
>specific religions by the government.
>
>Why do you appear to insist that the government support your religious
>beliefs and rituals?  This is odd reasoning coming from a "libertarian."
>
>Christ Church can hold their religious ceremonies, and offer wine in
>communion, on private property, to follow the US Constitutional guarantees 
>of
>separation of church and state.  I doubt the police will raid their 
>ceremony to arrest
>the adults who are supplying alcohol to minors.  And if the police did, 
>then
>the ceremonial use of wine for minors could be fought in the courts on the
>grounds of religious freedom.
>
>Phil wrote:
>
>"Using the example of the communion wine
>and the insistence that any wine used in a religious ceremony given to
>minors is supposedly a crime as preached by Ted and several others here on
>this particular listserv, Jews would indeed be barred from holding a Pesach
>Seder on University or City Property.  Similarly, Catholics who offer wine
>with their communions would also be barred from such religious practice
>involving those properties.  Only temperance minded religions need apply so
>order up the grade juice."
>
>-------------------------------
>
>Vision2020 Post by Ted Moffett
>
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/