[Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United ChurchofChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage

Art Deco deco at moscow.com
Tue Jul 12 12:26:29 PDT 2005


I am disappointed that some of the so-called libertarians on this list have 
not responded to this argument.  Or is the concept of individual liberty, 
choice, and aspiration in its death throes?

W.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United 
ChurchofChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage


> If they can convince us that this has been a normal practice throughout
> history then they think they can justify their actions today and 'prove'
> that the stand against homesexuality is wrong is our problem. It is the
> argument of a thirteen year old...'everybody else is doing it'. If it is
> wrong I don't care who else did it and just being famous is not reason
> enough to follow the beliefs of anyone.
> PK
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "lfalen" <lfalen at turbonet.com>
> To: "Tom Hansen" <thansen at moscow.com>; "'Pat Kraut'" <pkraut at moscow.com>;
> "'vision2020'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 12:52 PM
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church
> ofChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage
>
>
> Not that it makes any difference, but I would question some 20 plus of the
> names on your list being accurate. Some were great people some were
> scoundrels. Whether they were homosexual is debatable. You may be right, I
> don't know. Lord Byron was a notoriouss womanizer. He may not have had a
> preference, I don't know. There were accusations against J. Edgar Hoove 
> made
> by his enemies. I don't know that they have been shown to be any thing 
> more
> than accusations made to discredit him. I have never seen anything on
> Eleanor Roosevelt or about 20 other people on you list. Against that 
> doesn't
> mean anything.
> -----Original message-----
> From: "Tom Hansen" thansen at moscow.com
> Date: Sat,  9 Jul 2005 06:48:42 -0700
> To: "'Pat Kraut'" pkraut at moscow.com
> Subject: RE: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church of
> ChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage
>
>> You may be on to something there, Ms. Kraut.
>>
>> We certainly cannot have our children growing up thinking (or for that
>> matter, believing) that homosexuals are people with human emotions.
>>
>> We must identify homosexuals and eliminate them.  It's the moral thing to
>> do.  Right, Ms. Kraut?
>>
>> Perhaps another concept we should adapt concerning our children is "Out 
>> of
>> sight, out of mind."  We should purge any and all documents, films,
> photos,
>> etc. etc. that depict any of the following homosexuals.  After all, it is
>> only right.
>>
>> This list is not all inclusive, just a mere spattering of homosexuals in
>> history.  You've got to start somewhere.
>>
>> Right, Ms. Kraut?
>>
>>      *Macedonian Ruler, 300 B.C.
>>  Socrates
>>      *Greek Philosopher, 400 B.C.
>>  Sappho
>>      *Greek Woman Poet, 600 B.C.
>>  Hadrian
>>      *Roman Emperor, 1st-2nd c.
>>  Richard the Lionhearted
>>      *English King, 12th c.
>>  Saladin
>>      *Sultan of Egypt and Syria
>>  Desiderius Erasmus
>>      *Dutch Monk, Philosopher
>>  Francis Bacon
>>      *English statesman, author
>>  Frederick the Great
>>      *King of Prussia
>>  Lord Byron
>>      *English poet, 18th c.
>>  Walt Whitman
>>      *U.S. poet, author, 19th c.
>>  Oscar Wilde
>>      *Irish author, 19th c.
>>  Marcel Proust
>>      *French author, 20th c.
>>  Colette
>>      *French author, 20th c.
>>  Gertrude Stein
>>      *U.S. poet, author, 20th c.
>>  Alice B. Toklas
>>      *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>  Federico Garcia Lorca
>>      *Spanish author, 20th c.
>>  Cole Porter
>>      *U.S. composer, 20th c.
>>  Virginia Woolf
>>      *English author, 20th c.
>> Leonard Bernstein
>>      *U.S. composer, 20th c.
>>  Pope Julius III
>>      *1550-1555
>>  T.E. Lawrence
>>      *English soldier, author, 20th c.
>>  Jean Cocteau
>>      *French writer, director, 20th c.
>>  Charles Laughton
>>      *English actor, 20th c.
>>  Marguerite Yourcenar
>>      *Belgian author, 20th c.
>>  Tennessee Williams
>>      *U.S. Playwright, 20th c.
>>  James Baldwin
>>      *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>  Andy Warhol
>>      *U.S. artist, 20th c.
>>  Michelangelo
>>      *Italian artist, 15th c.
>>  Leonardo Da Vinci
>>      *Ital. Artist, scientist, 15th c.
>>  Christopher Marlowe
>>      *Eng. Playwright, 16th c.
>>  Herman Melville
>>      *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>  Horatio Alger, Jr.
>>      *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>  Tchaikovsky
>>      *Russian composer, 19th c.
>> Willa Cather
>>      *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>  Amy Lowell
>>      *U.S. author, 19th & 20th c.
>>  E.M. Forster
>>      *English author, 20th c.
>>  John M. Keynes
>>      *English economist, 20th c.
>>  Ludwig Wittgenstein
>>      *Australian mathematician, 20th c.
>>  Bessie Smith
>>      *U.S. singer, 20th c.
>>  Noel Coward
>>      *English playwright, 20th c.
>>  Christopher Isherwood
>>      *English author, 20th c.
>>  Pier Paolo Pasolini
>>      *Italian film director, 20th c.
>>  Yukio Mishima
>>      *Japanese author, 20th c.
>>  Eleanor Roosevelt
>>      *U.S. stateswoman, 20th c.
>>  Julius Caesar
>>      *Roman Emperor, 100-44 B.C.
>>  Augustus Caesar
>>      *Roman Emperor
>>  Harvey Milk
>>      *U.S. politician, 20th c.
>>  Bayard Rustin
>>      *U.S. Civil Rights activist, 20th c.
>>  James I
>>      *English King, 16th-17th c.
>>  Queen Anne
>>      *English Queen, 18th c.
>>  Marie Antoinette
>>      *French Empress, 18th c.
>>  Melissa Etheridge
>>      *U.S. Rock Star, 20th c.
>>  Pope Benedict IX
>>      *1032-1044
>>  May Sarton
>>      *U.S. author, (1912 - 1995)
>>  Edna Ferber
>>      *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>  Elton John
>>      *English Rock Star, 20th c.
>>  Margaret Fuller
>>      *U.S. writer, educator, 20th c.
>>  Montezuma II
>>      *Aztec ruler, 16th c.
>>  Peter the Great
>>      *Russian Czar, 17th-18th c.
>>  Langston Hughes
>>      *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>  Pope John XII
>>      *955-964
>>  Madame de Stael
>>      *French writer, 17th-18th c.
>>  Martina Navratilova
>>      *U.S. tennis star, 20th c.
>>  Greg Louganis
>>      *U.S. Olympic swimmer, 20th c.
>>  Billie Jean King
>>      *U.S. tennis star, 20th c.
>>  Roberta Achtenburg
>>      *U.S. politician, 20th c.
>>  Barney Frank
>>      *U.S. Congressman, 20th c.
>>  Gerry Studds
>>      *U.S. Congressman, 20th c.
>>  Hans Christian Andersen
>>      *Danish author, 19th c.
>>  Tom Dooley
>>      *U.S. M.D. missionary, 20th c.
>>  J. Edgar Hoover
>>      *U.S. director of the FBI., 20th c.
>>  Frida Kahlo
>>      *Mexican artist, 20th c.
>>  Suleiman the Magnificent
>>      *Ottoman ruler, 15th c.
>>  Rock Hudson
>>      *U.S. actor, 20th c.
>>  Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz
>>      *Mexican author, 16th c.
>>  Ralph Waldo Emerson
>>      *U.S. author, 19th c.
>>  Candace Gingrich
>>      *Gay Rights activist, 20th c.
>>  Margarethe Cammermeyer
>>      *U.S. Army Colonel, 20th c.
>>  Zoe Dunning
>>      *U.S. Military Reservist, 20th c.
>>  Tom Waddel
>>      *U.S. M.D., Olympic star, 20th c.
>>  Kate Millet
>>      *U.S. author, 20th c.
>>  Janis Joplin
>>      *U.S. singer, 20th c.
>>  Rudolf Nuryev
>>      *Russian dancer, 20th c.
>>  Waslaw Nijinsky
>>      *Russian dancer, 20th c.
>>  Ernst Röhm
>>      *German Nazi leader, 20th c.
>>  Dag Hammerskjold
>>      *Swedish UN Secretary, 209th c.
>>  Aristotle
>>      *Greek philosopher, 384-322 B.C.
>>  Paula Gunn Allen
>>      *Native American author, 20th c.
>>  Angela Davis
>>      *U.S. political activist, 20th c.
>>  June Jordan
>>      *U.S. author, activist, 20th c.
>>  Rainer Maria Rilke
>>      *German poet, 20th c.
>>  James Dean
>>      *U.S. actor, 20th c.
>>  Montgomery Clift
>>      *U.S. actor, 20th c.
>>  Baron VonSteuben
>>      *German General, Valley Forge
>>  Edward II
>>      *English King, 14th c.
>>
>> Take care, Moscow.
>>
>> Tom Hansen
>>
>>
>> We could learn a lot from crayons: some are sharp, some are pretty, some
> are
>> dull, some have weird names, and all are different colors....but they all
>> exist very nicely in the same box.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com 
>> [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>> On Behalf Of Pat Kraut
>> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 9:54 PM
>> To: vision2020
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church of
>> ChristBacksSame-Sex Marriage
>>
>> You truly cannot see the difference...no wonder our kids don't know what
>> morality is. We are doomed!
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Scott Dredge" <sdredge at yahoo.com>
>> To: "donald toogood" <dtoogood at email.com>; <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>> Sent: Friday, July 08, 2005 7:40 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] 07 05 05 Ny Times: United Church of Christ
>> BacksSame-Sex Marriage
>>
>>
>> Maybe you didn't understand my comment.  At one point
>> in this country not so long ago (around 1950), many
>> states outlawed interracial marriages...something like
>> 38 states banned them.  Some had bans within their
>> state constitutions.  The reason why I bring this up
>> is that it is a direct parallel to banning same sex
>> marriage.
>>
>> Roughly 60 years ago in this country, interracial
>> marriages were banned.  A black man marrying a white
>> woman was illegal.  A white man marrying a black woman
>> was illegal.  You claim this isn't the same thing as a
>> man marrying a man or a woman marrying a woman.  Why?
>> If at one point, there were laws against interracial
>> marriage and same sex marriage, what's the difference?
>>  They were both considered illegal marriages.
>>
>> Married can mean between a man and a woman.  However,
>> same sex couples in a civil union deserve the exact
>> same rights as married couples.
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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