[Vision2020] re:Spain Legalizes Same-Sex Marriage

Fri Jul 8 00:17:07 PDT 2005

I'll admit I don't know you or your particular beliefs and perhaps I'm 
rushing to judgment.  I'll admit my song is simplistic, but to me, music 
uses drama to make a point.  I'm just disturbed at how ingrained bigotry 
towards homosexuals is and how most people don't even question why they feel 
that.  To read your comments is upsetting.

My simplistic comments regarding you are just as simplistic as your views of 
homosexuals, who, I assume you believe, are so because of the devil.

As much sympathy as I have, I still have a hard time mustering it for 
bigots.  Please forgive me.

Your comments regarding homosexuals indicates you are bigoted, and you 
justify it by your religion.  You have the right to do so.  The problem, in 
my eyes, is your interpretation of your religion is divisive and goes 
against Jesus' commandment of loving your brother as yourself.  God says, as 
well, to love your enemy.  Perhaps this is meaningless to you?

I assume you believe in the devil, so it seems to me that if there were a 
devil, what better tool would he use to corrupt the love of God then 
religion?  How would you know otherwise?  How do you know you are not doing 
the devils bidding by telling homosexuals they do not have the right to 
marry? In my view, that is evil because it goes against one of the strongest 
desires God has given people: the desire to love another.  It is 
heartbreaking, selfish, arrogant and just plain wrong for you to tell a 
person who they cannot love.

The fact is, certain dogmatic religions are supposing what God wants (pretty 
arrogant) and are willing to condemn those who they think God hates.  These 
religions are creating hell for homosexuals and thus, from the perspective 
of those who believe homosexuals have every right to live and marry as 
heterosexuals, these religions are the devils work.  Those who promote these 
religions thus are created in the image of that devil.

I used to be homophobic, so I understand that feeling.  But I've realized 
how limiting that belief is.  Humans are not the only creature that has 
homosexual tendencies.  Considering how humans can have emotional 
attachments towards those they are intimate with, it's no surprise that 
homosexuals can fall in love with each other, just like heterosexuals, and 
desire to develop a long term relationship.

That commitment should not only be honored, but encouraged, because the fact 
is, people who are in a healthy, committed relationship are healthier, 
happier and live longer.  It is only compassionate to want people to have 
that in their lives.  This, in turn, translates into a healthier community, 
which we struggle to create.

Your definition of marriage is selfish and limiting.  If marriage is so 
wonderful, why not allow that for people whose nature, for whatever reason, 
is to love someone of the same sex?

The fact is, both men and women are God's children.  That is the important 
thing, not what sex a person is.  Besides, did you know there are people 
born whose gender in indeterminate?  These are people who are neither male 
nor female, or are both.  How do they fit in with your definition of 
marriage?

We are still learning the affects of hormones on the developing fetus.  
Slight alterations of hormones during pregnancy can have dramatic affects on 
the baby and it's future development.  There are people born looking male, 
or female, but whose brain is of the opposite sex.  Why should they be 
condemned to live a life contrary to themselves just because people like you 
think they should act a certain way?

God blessed humans with diversity.  Granted, things would be easier if 
people fell out of a mould, but that's not the case.  We, as sensitive 
beings, have an obligation to insure that those different from us are not 
condemned to hell we can create for them.

Perhaps my judgment of you placed you in hell.  I apologize for that.  
Please know that that short, dramatic email could have been better served 
with a long, drawn out email like this.  But that may have gotten your 
attention unlike this one may have.

I don't think your limited view on another person's love-life should dictate 
policies that affect homosexuals desire to have a lifelong partnership.  
They should be granted the same rights as heterosexuals who desire the same 
union.  That is only fair and in our just country, that should be the law, 
not some religious fanatics interpretation of God.

It is unconstitutional for Congress to pass laws respecting the 
establishment of religion.  This is a religious issue.  Your church has 
every right to not marry who they don't want to marry, but our government 
has to treat people equally.  That is the 14th Amendment to our 
Constitution.

I can only hope you are not evil or created in the devils image and are 
indeed willing to try to understand my reasoning and are willing to love 
your brothers (though not necessarily in a sexual way!)

Take care,

Garrett Clevenger

http://www.icehouse.net/garrett

"What are we doing to our Homos?!:("

donald toogood      dtoogood at email.com
     Wed Jul  6 12:30:51 PDT 2005

So, the fellow who wrote that song or whatever it is thinks people that
don't agree that gay marriage even is marriage are the devil or evil.
That's like a little kid getting all mad and calling names in an
argument. Well, that's crazy as hell. If it's not marriage it's not.
Being married is just for a man and a woman. If somebody gets mad about
it then let him call names but it still doesn't change the truth.
Religious people stand up for that because they stand up for what they
think is true and good. They have just as good an opinion as you do. Just
giving in to somebody because he calls you evil or other names means
you're just weak. That's why only the religions that are strong and stand
for something aren't giving in on this calling two men or two women
married.

  ----- Original Message -----
  From: "Garrett Clevenger"
  To: vision2020 at moscow.com
  Subject: [Vision2020] re:Spain Legalizes Same-Sex Marriage
  Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2005 22:32:48 -0700

  >
  > "If there ever were a devil who corrupted the Love of God,
  > it seems he'd use religion to promote such devisive thought.
  > So perhaps you are created in the image of Lucifer
  > 'cause you got his evil feelings and for gay couples, you're
  > creating Hell on Earth."
  >
  > from "You Homo, Too, Blues"
  >
  > http://www.icehouse.net/garrett/songs/youhomotooblues.htm
  >
  >
  > Garrett Clevenger
  >
  > http://www.icehouse.net/garrett
  >
  > "What are we doing to our Homos?!:("
  >
  >
  > donald toogood dtoogood at email.com
  > Fri Jul 1 13:11:26 PDT 2005
  >
  > [Vision2020] Spain Legalizes Same-Sex Marriage
  >
  > D.Toogood said:
  > "That's crazy. A man can't marry a man. And two women
  > can't either. Let'em go in the bedroom somewhere and
  > let them do any thing to each other, I don't care but
  > that's still not a real marriage whether they call it
  > married or not."
  >