[Vision2020] Buy Depends.
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold at hotmail.com
Mon Feb 28 17:12:41 PST 2005
Mr. Hall,
Thank you for having the courage to come onto V2020 and speak your mind. And
always feel free to do so. Rest assured though you will always be attacked
on here any day of the week you come on and twice so on Sunday. But as you
discovered yourself, you are being attacked anyway in website parodies.
Again, I want to say that I don't believe in what Doug Wilson has to say. I
disagree with many of his beliefs and his ideology. However, I strongly
believe in your right to practice your faith freely. And by freely I mean
without harassment, boycotting, and/or any type of discrimination. As long
as you follow the law, and don't force your ideology on others, I support
your right to follow your spiritual faith, where ever that may take you.
I believe what is going on here is that a small group of people are
attacking Mr. Wilson because they disagree with his ideology which is to
them is bigoted, racist, homophobic, and sexist (and to a degree, I agree).
However, I frankly, see very little difference between Christ Church and
most other mainstream conservative religions in ideology. Most, if not all
religions have some form of this belief. Are we to attack all people that
have these ideas in their head? All people are bigots to some degree.
What I fail to understand is how attacking Wilson, which is their strategy,
is going to change what the people of Christ Church believe. Do they think,"
Hey if we degrade the members of Christ Church, attack them for what they
believe, and call Wilson a wife beater all the members will be become
liberal hippies and start fighting for equal rights for people that are Gay"
? This seems to be the thinking.
My thinking is that none of us are all 100% correct and the best way to
reach the truth is to put all of thoughts and ideas on the table. We need to
put up logical arguments about what we think is right and wrong and
challenge each one. The Bible is just one book in this process.
But I haven't see any of this type of logical argumentation. All I see is
people making attacks on character.
I think when members of a community attack another group in the community it
creates hardship and division in the entire community. I don't think this
has to be the case. I feel that when people are attacked for their faith, it
makes all peoples faith venerable to attack. This is what really scares me.
Thomas Paine, at least I think it was him, once said, that he wouldn't
necessarily fight for what a man had to say, but he would die for a man's
right to say it. While I don't have this level of courage, I believe in this
same concept. While I don't agree with most, is any religion, I do agree
with their right to practice it and say what they believe.
Take Care,
Donovan J Arnold
>From: "Mike Hall" <mikehall at moscow.com>
>To: "'Donovan Arnold'" <donovanarnold at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Buy Depends.
>Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2005 07:53:16 -0800
>
>Donovan,
>
>Thank you for a breath of common sense and decorum. I went to the website
>you referenced below and lo and behold, look what I found (see below). I
>guess Hall Closet Uniforms has come onto the radar of these folks as well.
>I've seen Wayne Fox mention us once in a list of boycotted stores a while
>back, but I wasn't aware we had risen to the level of parody. I suppose
>that where my wife and I go to church indicates that we are guilty of
>something? Am I going to have a yellow star of David painted on our front
>window soon? This behavior looks more and more nazi-like every day. What
>is going on here?
>
>Having started in our basement in Viola six years ago, we are still just a
>small business trying to provide good products and services, trying to make
>a go of it. We serve public charter schools, Christian schools, Mormon
>schools, Catholic schools, even a school for the gifted. The other day we
>even got a web order from a tribe in Oklahoma for some blazers. We serve
>local businesses that used to have to go to Spokane to find professional
>uniforms. We even have comfortable shoes for those who are on their feet a
>lot. I'd invite anyone to come by and check them out. Everyone raves
>about
>them... :^)
>
>As long as I'm on my soapbox, I'm curious about statements that Christ
>Church is a cult as well. Having grown up in a Baptist Church and then
>mainstream evangelical churches in Silicon Valley, I have yet to hear any
>so-called "cult teachings" that diverge wildly from other evangelical
>churches I've been to. From what I have heard taught and from what I have
>read, Christ Church is planted square in the middle of the reformed
>evangelical Christian tradition. If that's what constitutes a cult, then
>you'll have to lump millions of folks, spanning several centuries, into
>that
>category.
>
>As for Doug Wilson as a pastor and a godly man, I've only seen him to be a
>consistent and caring shepherd. He is someone who genuinely cares for
>people. He is not afraid to preach the Bible, even the un-politically
>correct parts that many pastors today avoid like the plague. Thus he
>demonstrates character and backbone in the face of great opposition. And
>he
>is not stand-offish with "celeb-itis" like some evangelical leaders in
>America that have had successful ministries. How can biblical teaching
>make
>him a bad person? There are many, many folks in this community, from many.
>many churches throughout the Palouse, who are in the same boat, that
>believe
>the same things he teaches every Sunday.
>
>I think you are right that many folks in our community are sickened by the
>character assassination that goes on regularly on this forum. And then to
>lump everyone who knows Doug, or goes to Christ Church, into a cult? I
>know
>that is not what this forum was created for.
>
>In closing, I have just one request. Please include our url in any future
>references to HCU. (I'm sure I'll get blasted for peeking my head up out
>of
>my foxhole.) It really does help with google search rankings to have our
>domain linked from other places on the web, and since v2020 posts are
>archived, every little bit helps.
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike Hall
>http://www.hallclosetuniforms.com
>
>
>
>http://www.auntie-establishment.com/KirkaAcademy.html
>Your school uniforms can be purchased for two hundred clams at Sal's
>Uniform
>Closet. (You could purchase dem elsewhere's for less, maybe, but we
>wouldn't
>recommend it. See? Good.) Blue or black pinstripe suit, purple acetate
>shirt wit matching necktie, black nylon socks, and shiny black shoes. No
>exceptions. We don't want to see no baggy phat pants wit your underwear
>hanging over da top like you was a gangsta, capische? You're a gang-ster.
>You know da difference? Probably not, but at La Kirka Nostra Academy,
>you'll learn it, Day One.
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com]
>On Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
>Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 10:28 PM
>To: sslund at adelphia.net; auntiestablishment at hotmail.com;
>vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Buy Depends.
>
>Hi Saundra,
>
>I am awfully sorry that you were offended by my email, that was not my aim.
>However, those are my feelings and the feelings of many others in this
>community about the methods and obsession with Doug Wilson. Many people
>will
>
>not tell you this because they are afraid you and others on V2020 will cut
>them down and steamroll over them. I know because they privately email or
>tell me so in person. And not just people that are supporters of Doug
>Wilson, but people that also dislike Mr. Wilson.
>
>My objection is not with the standing against Mr. Wilson. I support
>challenging him and his ideology, as does probably about 75% of the
>community. However, a line must be drawn in the manner in which people go
>about addressing these concerns. I feel people have stepped over the line
>and need to be told so. I do not find it acceptable to do the following
>things:
>
>1) Accusing a man or woman in the community of abuse without evidence
>legal
>evidence of a court conviction. This is totally rude, and unethical. If you
>have evidence of Doug Wilson abusing women and children or other members of
>his congregation, you need to go to the police and report it and allow the
>legal system to try and convict him. I would feel the same way if someone
>accused you of abusing your child. That is a very SERIOUS and damaging
>allegation and you better have more than hearsay to make that claim on a
>public forum.
>
>2) Character assassination is the wrong direction. Things like this:
>
>http://www.auntie-establishment.com/LaKirkaNostra.html
>
>How would you like it if someone did that to you? This is clearly an
>attempt
>
>to make fun of Mr. Wilson. It doesn’t address any key issues. It is made
>for
>
>the pure enjoyment and entertainment of those that oppose Mr. Wilson.
>Moscow
>
>is better than this type of behavior. I feel I must speak out against it.
>
>3) This issue is way overrepresented on V2020 and overshadowing other
>pressing issues facing members of the community. Several people have
>counted
>
>that 50% of the posts on V2020 in the last six months are about Doug
>Wilson,
>
>or in some connection to him. Furthermore, not much of it is factually
>supported evidence, but just slander, speculation, and hearsay.
>
>What about other issues? What the fact that 30% of the people in Moscow now
>have inadequate health insurance because Gritman and UI agreed to require
>students to have $500,000 in catastrophic health insurance and a $1,000,000
>life policy in order to switch to another company and get medical services
>that would better address their medical needs, like Dental care, and HIV
>testing?
>
>What about the fact that property owners don’t shovel snow and people get
>injured?
>
>What about the lack of low income housing in Moscow? Everyday the elderly,
>poor, and those with disabilities are trying to get housing they can
>afford.
>
>Nothing from liberals on V2020 about this issue.
>
>What about the poor water quality?
>
>What about the fact that minimum wage has not gone up in about ten years
>and
>
>people are still working for that wage of $5.15?
>
>What about the lack of crosswalks across out busy streets where children
>and
>
>students cross?
>
>What about the fact that the University eliminated the Office of Human
>Rights? I didn’t see anyone from V2020 there when we faced the University
>Administration.
>
>You guys were not even there to help the Democrats move office locations?
>Not one of you showed up to help move so much as chair or box of pencils.
>
>Liberals use to stand for freedom of religion, rights for the poor and
>minorities, proper health care, and quality and accessiable education. I
>can see that is not the case anymore.
>
>SO I am sorry that you are offended. I am offended likewise in the this
>type
>
>of behavior from many of the community members. But yes, I am appreciative
>of all the volunteer work that ALL people do, even those that attend Christ
>Church and serve on the Gritman Board of Directors. But I strongly feel
>that
>
>many of the attacks against Wilson & Friends are nothing more than libel
>and
>
>slander, and the preoccupation with this one issue comes at a great cost in
>not addressing the many other issues and concerns facing all people in
>Moscow and Latah.
>
>My concern is that we set standards for the community, and that everyone,
>even Wilson, has the right to not to be charged, tried, and convicted by
>the
>
>same five people on V2020 using any methods they choose. Burning the entire
>village to save it is a bad philosophy. If speaking my concerns offends
>you or anyone else, you have my deepest apologies, but those are my
>feelings
>
>and your words and actions have sparked this response from me.
>
>Take Care,
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at adelphia.net>
> >To: "'Donovan Arnold'" <donovanarnold at hotmail.com>,
> ><auntiestablishment at hotmail.com>, <vision2020 at moscow.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Buy Depends.
> >Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2005 11:40:41 -0800
> >
> >Hi Donovan,
> >
> >You wrote:
> >"What is with this obsession with Doug Wilson? Where do you people get
>your
> >time to do this stuff. Don't you have other interests and community
> >concerns
> >than this one man?"
> >
> >Sorry . . . your are simply wrong & uninformed. I happen to know more
>than
> >a few community members who are concerned about The Church of the
> >Intolerant
> >Leaders (aka Christ Church hierarchy) and the harm they cause not only
>our
> >community but also those within their own congregation, and I'm offended
>by
> >your stereotyping, not to mention that it's just plain WRONG. I can't
> >speak
> >for all of us, but concerned folks I know within and without our
>community
> >*do* have other interests and community (& state & national and
> >international) concerns and interests they are actively involved with and
> >participate in with passion.
> >
> >I think an apology is in order -- just because you aren't aware of all
>the
> >good works done by others doesn't negate the value. Slamming people
> >because
> >you're uninformed isn't helpful and it's unfair.
> >
> >You also wrote:
> >"Why not try beating the guy by reducing his membership with logic,
> >reasoning, truth and ethics rather than slander and force?"
> >
> >Well, where have you been?!?!? That's exactly what's been happening and
> >successfully, too.
> >
> >Some of us understand the complete wickedness of spiritual & pastoral
>abuse
> >and the harm they cause. Try actually talking to someone whose been a
> >victim -- there are folks right here in our community who could open your
> >eyes. Short of that, I suggest you do some reading about it, and then
> >perhaps you'll have an inkling of why folks in this community -- and
> >elsewhere -- fight it where we find it.
> >
> >
> >Saundra Lund
> >Moscow, ID
> >
> >The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> >nothing.
> >Edmund Burke
> >
> >
> >_____________________________________________________
> > List services made available by First Step Internet,
> > serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> > http://www.fsr.net
> > mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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>
>
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>
>
>_____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet,
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.
> http://www.fsr.net
> mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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