[Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
keely emerinemix
kjajmix1 at msn.com
Fri Aug 19 19:10:03 PDT 2005
I don't know Sunil. I don't pretend to understand Donovan. But I think
it's ridiculous to suggest that Sunil is hostile to those with different
beliefs when he's been patiently trying to explain his position on public
prayer, no matter how ludicrous the response. Could we decide that the
issue is a bit more complex, maybe, than merely an argument between "people
who love God" and "people who are hostile to others or preventing people
from connecting to God," with no other possible interpretation?
Some things are absolutes. Vandalism is bad, for example, and so is
slander. But most things can be discussed intelligently and respectfully,
and one's position on public prayer really could be just that -- an opinion,
a position, a belief -- and not an indication of the state of their immortal
souls.
And how causing people to vote for Bush got into the equation, I'll never
know . . .
keely emerine mix
From: "Sunil Ramalingam" <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
To: donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 18:19:52 -0700
And here I was, blissfully ignorant that I was responsible for Bush's
presidency. I didn't know that, despite having a degree in political
science, one that paid huge dividends as I dug ditches, busted concrete, and
cleaned construction sites. Maybe that's because Sac State calls it
'Government,' not political science.
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 15:23:07 -0700 (PDT)
>Sunil,
>
>The Supreme Court does agree with my position on this
>issue, as does the US Senate and US House. But
>agreement or disagreement with the Supreme Court does
>not make you right or wrong. The Supreme Court also
>has ruled that the local governments can take away
>your private property to raise tax revenues and states
>must return escaped slaves to their owners. So I would
>raise your standards a little higher than agreement
>with the Supreme Court. Your hostility towards others
>that
believe and practice differently than us is what
>causes people to vote for Bush in the first place.
>
>Take Care,
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Donovan,
>
>You have no basis to make that ridiculous statement.
>Agreeing with the Supreme Court's interpretation of
>the First Amendment hardly equates to a 'grudge
>against God.' Holding a belief that private matters
>should remain so is not a 'grudge against God.' Your
>credibility suffers when you make foolish statements
>and jump to conclusions about those who disagree with
>you.
>
>I am relieved that your opinion on this issue has not
>prevailed in
court. I suggest you add a request for
>wisdom to your next prayer. Every post like your last
>one serves only to devalue your diploma.
>
>Sunil
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
>vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
>money
>Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 14:25:31 -0700 (PDT)
> >Sunil,
> >
> >It is ironic how Native Americans were so violated by
> >their fellow human beings and still worship Him and
> >yet you are the one that holds a grudge against God
> >when he gave you everything.
> >
> >Donovan J
Arnold
> >
> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >Donovan,
> >
> >I find your position here quite stunning. I think
> >Native Americans for instance might take a different
> >position from yours on the historical effects of a
> >prayerful nation. And for you to try to link prayer
> >to complex political and historical events is
> >breath-taking.
> >
> >Sunil
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> >To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
>
>vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
> >money
> >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT)
> > >Sunil,
> > >
> > >You wrote:
> > >
> > >"You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal
> >to
> > >answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer
> >has
> > >had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's
> > >exhibit A in my case against public prayer or
> > >invocations of God's will."
> > >
> > >I think Bush in the White House is evidence that we
> > >cut too much prayer out. Ever notice as prayer goes
> > >down so does the quality of Presidents.
> > >
> > >When we were a
religious nation we had Lincoln,
> > >Washington, and Roosevelt. We balanced the budget
>and
> > >won our wars. Now without prayer we have Bush, Bush
> > >Jr. and Ronald Reagan. We have the largest deficit
> >in
> > >the world and we haven't won a real war since WWII.
> > >
> > >Donovan J Arnold
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >
> > >Donovan,
> > >
> > >You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal
>to
> > >answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer
> >has
> > >had on W's decisions and
policies. I think he's
> > >exhibit A in my case against public prayer or
> > >invocations of God's will.
> > >
> > >Sunil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >
> > >From: Donovan Arnold
><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >To: Sunil Ramalingam
><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
> > >vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
> > >money
> > >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
> > > >Sunil,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >You wrote, "I think state-sponsored prayer IS
>state
> > >
>religion."
> > > >
> > > >You are wrong. Prayer is not A religion. All or
> >most
> > > >religions PRAY or have some type or concept of
> > >PRAYER.
> > > >So the state is not forcing a religion on anyone
>by
> > > >allowing a moment for prayer. Nor is it promoting
> >one
> > > >religion over another. If do not want to pray,
>you
> >do
> > > >not have too, but do not prevent others. I would
> >also
> > > >like to point out that both the State and Federal
> > > >governments use public prayer before their
>meeting.
> > > >
> > > >Donovan J Arnold
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Sunil
Ramalingam
><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > >wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >I think we're communicating, but we don't agree.
>I
> > > >think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion.
> >When
> > > >the group you're describing as the minority has
>to
> > >sit
> > > >there while the group you define as the majority
> >says
> > > >their prayer prior to public business, then your
> > > >majority is jamming its religion down the
> >minority's
> > > >throat. What you want your minority to do is
> >succumb
> > > >to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent
>
>on
> > > >forcing its religion on them.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >I don't claim a constitutional right not to have
>to
> > > >see religious symbols or hear prayer; that's a
> >straw
> > > >man about to tip over. I do have a right not to
> >have
> > > >the state promote one religion over another. I'm
> >not
> > > >going to make other people have to listen to
> > > >Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in
> > > >exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist
>or
> > > >Muslim prayers too.
> > > >
> > > >Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in
> > > >influencing his decisions? You see the Divine
in
> >his
> > > >actions?
> > > >
> > > >Sunil
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---------------------------------
> > > >
> > > >From: Donovan Arnold
> ><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > >To: Sunil Ramalingam
> ><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
> > > >vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
>public
> > > >money
> > > >Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > >Sunil,
> > > > >
> > > > >We are not communicating obviously. I do not
> > >support
> > > > >state religion. I
just oppose the government
> > >telling
> > > > >me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I
> > > > >believe that persons have a constitutional
>right
> > >not
> > > > >to see or hear praying or religious symbols.
> > > > >
> > > > >It just irritates me that people are so
> >intolerant
> > > > >they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a
> >prayer
> > >or
> > > > >the courteous of being able to express
> >themselves.
> > > > >Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable
> > >request
> > > > >of the minority to give to the majority. People
> >can
> > > >be
> > > > >so disrespectful sometimes.
>
> > > >
> > > > >Donovan J Arnold
> > > > >
> > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam
> ><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > > >wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >Donovan,
> > > > >
> > > > >Others have already pointed out the Supreme
>Court
> > > > >decisions interpreting the Constitution. That
> > >works
> > > > >for me. I have lived in a country with a state
> > > > >religion, and I've always appreciated the
> > >difference
> > > > >between that approach and ours. I
disagree
>with
> > >your
> > > > >views on state action and religion, and am
> >grateful
> > > > >the issue has been settled.
> > > > >
> > > > >Sunil
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >---------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > >From: Donovan Arnold
> > ><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > > >To: Sunil Ramalingam
> > ><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
> > > > >vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
> >public
> > > > >money
> > > >
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > > >Sunil,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Can you please quote me in the Constitution
> >where
> > > >it
> > > > > >says you have a right to be protected from
> >being
> > > > > >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot
> > >find.
> > > >I
> > > > > >do see where it says the government cannot
>stop
> > >me
> > > > > >from practicing my religion, but I cannot
>find
> > > >where
> > > > > >it says people have to hide all religious
> > >writings,
> > > > > >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of
>anyone
> > >
>that
> > > > > >may not wish to listen?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >If you are looking to save time at a public
> > >meeting
> > > > > >there are areas that you can cut out that
>will
> > >save
> > > > > >more time than the prayer. But again, where
> >does
> > >it
> > > > > >say that public meetings should run in the
>most
> > > > > >efficient manner as to not waste time or
>upset
> > > > >Sunil's
> > > > > >schedule?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"It does not follow that you are being forced
> >to
> > > > > >practice atheism if you don't pray at
a
>public
> > > > > >meeting."
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are
> > > > > >preventing us from praying you are preventing
> >us
> > > >from
> > > > > >practicing our religion is says we are
>suppose
> >to
> > > > > >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a
> > >religion
> > > > >or
> > > > > >establishing a religion.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Donovan J Arnold
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- Sunil Ramalingam
> > ><sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > > > >
>wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >---------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Donovan,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I want you to be able to say all the prayers
> >you
> > > > >want,
> > > > > >whenever and wherever you want, as long as
>you
> > > >want,
> > > > > >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want
> >you
> > > >to
> > > > > >practice your religion, but not at the
>expense
> >of
> > > >my
> > > > > >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're
>at
> > >your
> > > > >
>church, I'm more than willing to listen to
>you
> > >pray
> > > > > >out loud, because I have the simple choice of
> >not
> > > > > >going there at all.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >It does not follow that you are being forced
>to
> > > > > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a
>public
> > > > > >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a
> > > >gulag,
> > > > > >or barred from private prayer or from
>attending
> > > >your
> > > > > >church. You're simply not going to be able
>to
> > >use
> > > >up
> > > > > >other people's time at a public meeting for
> > >
>something
> > > > > >you can do silently at that meeting.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Politicians want to pray at public meetings
>so
> > >they
> > > > > >can act pious for the cameras and the public.
> > >You
> > > > > >think W's praying is working out well for us?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >sunil
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >---------------------------------
> > > > > >
> > > > > >From: Donovan Arnold
> > > ><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > > > > >To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>,
> > >
> > >joanopyr at earthlink.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
> > > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
> > >public
> > > > > >money
> > > > > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
> > > > > > >The Government representing a FAITH or
> >Religion
> > > >is
> > > > > > >against the Constitution Mr. Hansen.
>Allowing
> >a
> > > > > >moment
> > > > > > >to pray does not.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the
> > > >people
> > > > > >get
> > > > > > >only the same amount of time as the other
>5%.
>
> >The
> > > > > > >government represents people, not Gods, so
>it
> > > > >should
> > > > > > >be the people, not Gods that get equal
>time.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force
> > >people
> > > >to
> > > > > > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do
>not
> > > >force
> > > > > > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it
>is
> > > > > > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because
> >you
> > > >are
> > > > > > >preventing them from practicing their faith
> >and
> > > > > > >forcing them to practice another.
>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >What you are saying is that because my
>moment
> > >of
> > > > > > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot
> > > >practice
> > > > > >it.
> > > > > > >This is the state stopping me from my free
> > > >exercise
> > > > > >of
> > > > > > >religion.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Donovan J Arnold
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >--- Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -
>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I would be more than willing to support
> > >prayer
> > > > >at
> > > > > > > > all city council sessions,
> > > > > > > > provided that each (and EVERY) faith
> > > >represented
> > > > > > > > within Moscow is provided
> > > > > > > > "equal time".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Lacking this possibility, the session
> > >further
> > > > > >lacks
> > > > > > > > equality. And I am
> > > > > > > > certain that you wouldn't want that, now
> > >would
> > > > > >you?
> >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Enough said.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > > > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "If not us, who?
> > > > > > > > If not now, when?"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > - Unknown
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Donovan Arnold
> > > > > > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05 at yahoo.com]
> > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM
> >
> > > > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;
> > > > > > > > vision2020 at momoscowom
> > > > > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer
>on
> > > > >public
> > > > > > > > money
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Mr. Hansen,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You are only offering circular
>arguments.
> >A
> > > > > >speaker
> > > > > > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at a
> > > >meeting
> > > > > > > > too.
> > > > > > > > You silly man. So why not let those that
> > > >believe
> > > >
> >in
> > > > > > > > praying before conducting important
> >business
> > > > >pray
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > those that wish not to think about
> >something
> > > > >else.
> > > > > > > > Why
> > > > > > > > should those that wish to pray be
>denied.
> >If
> > > >you
> > > > > > > > allow
> > > > > > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If
> >you
> > > > > > > > disallow
> > > > > > > > prayer only those that wish not to pray
> >get
> > > >what
> > > > > > > > they
> > >
> > > > > want.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Donovan J Arnold
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >____________________________________________________
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> > > >page
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> > > > >
>
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
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_____________________________________________________
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http://www.fsr.net
mailto:Vision2020 at moscow.com
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