[Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 18 22:00:16 PDT 2005
Sunil,
You wrote:
"You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal to
answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer has
had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's
exhibit A in my case against public prayer or
invocations of God's will."
I think Bush in the White House is evidence that we
cut too much prayer out. Ever notice as prayer goes
down so does the quality of Presidents.
When we were a religious nation we had Lincoln,
Washington, and Roosevelt. We balanced the budget and
won our wars. Now without prayer we have Bush, Bush
Jr. and Ronald Reagan. We have the largest deficit in
the world and we haven't won a real war since WWII.
Donovan J Arnold
--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
---------------------------------
Donovan,
You're becoming quite Kraute-esque in your refusal to
answer my questions on the wholesome impact prayer has
had on W's decisions and policies. I think he's
exhibit A in my case against public prayer or
invocations of God's will.
Sunil
---------------------------------
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
money
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 16:10:11 -0700 (PDT)
>Sunil,
>
>
>You wrote, "I think state-sponsored prayer IS state
>religion."
>
>You are wrong. Prayer is not A religion. All or most
>religions PRAY or have some type or concept of
PRAYER.
>So the state is not forcing a religion on anyone by
>allowing a moment for prayer. Nor is it promoting one
>religion over another. If do not want to pray, you do
>not have too, but do not prevent others. I would also
>like to point out that both the State and Federal
>governments use public prayer before their meeting.
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>
>
>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>I think we're communicating, but we don't agree. I
>think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion. When
>the group you're describing as the minority has to
sit
>there while the group you define as the majority says
>their prayer prior to public business, then your
>majority is jamming its religion down the minority's
>throat. What you want your minority to do is succumb
>to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent on
>forcing its religion on them.
>
>
>I don't claim a constitutional right not to have to
>see religious symbols or hear prayer; that's a straw
>man about to tip over. I do have a right not to have
>the state promote one religion over another. I'm not
>going to make other people have to listen to
>Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in
>exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist or
>Muslim prayers too.
>
>Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in
>influencing his decisions? You see the Divine in his
>actions?
>
>Sunil
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
>vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
>money
>Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
> >Sunil,
> >
> >We are not communicating obviously. I do not
support
> >state religion. I just oppose the government
telling
> >me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I
> >believe that persons have a constitutional right
not
> >to see or hear praying or religious symbols.
> >
> >It just irritates me that people are so intolerant
> >they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a prayer
or
> >the courteous of being able to express themselves.
> >Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable
request
> >of the minority to give to the majority. People can
>be
> >so disrespectful sometimes.
> >
> >Donovan J Arnold
> >
> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >Donovan,
> >
> >Others have already pointed out the Supreme Court
> >decisions interpreting the Constitution. That
works
> >for me. I have lived in a country with a state
> >religion, and I've always appreciated the
difference
> >between that approach and ours. I disagree with
your
> >views on state action and religion, and am grateful
> >the issue has been settled.
> >
> >Sunil
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >From: Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> >To: Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
> >vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
> >money
> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)
> > >Sunil,
> > >
> > >Can you please quote me in the Constitution where
>it
> > >says you have a right to be protected from being
> > >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot
find.
>I
> > >do see where it says the government cannot stop
me
> > >from practicing my religion, but I cannot find
>where
> > >it says people have to hide all religious
writings,
> > >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of anyone
>that
> > >may not wish to listen?
> > >
> > >
> > >If you are looking to save time at a public
meeting
> > >there are areas that you can cut out that will
save
> > >more time than the prayer. But again, where does
it
> > >say that public meetings should run in the most
> > >efficient manner as to not waste time or upset
> >Sunil's
> > >schedule?
> > >
> > >"It does not follow that you are being forced to
> > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public
> > >meeting."
> > >
> > >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are
> > >preventing us from praying you are preventing us
>from
> > >practicing our religion is says we are suppose to
> > >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a
religion
> >or
> > >establishing a religion.
> > >
> > >Donovan J Arnold
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Sunil Ramalingam
<sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> > >wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >
> > >Donovan,
> > >
> > >I want you to be able to say all the prayers you
> >want,
> > >whenever and wherever you want, as long as you
>want,
> > >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want you
>to
> > >practice your religion, but not at the expense of
>my
> > >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're at
your
> > >church, I'm more than willing to listen to you
pray
> > >out loud, because I have the simple choice of not
> > >going there at all.
> > >
> > >It does not follow that you are being forced to
> > >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public
> > >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a
>gulag,
> > >or barred from private prayer or from attending
>your
> > >church. You're simply not going to be able to
use
>up
> > >other people's time at a public meeting for
>something
> > >you can do silently at that meeting.
> > >
> > >Politicians want to pray at public meetings so
they
> > >can act pious for the cameras and the public.
You
> > >think W's praying is working out well for us?
> > >
> > >sunil
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >---------------------------------
> > >
> > >From: Donovan Arnold
><donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> > >To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>,
> > >joanopyr at earthlink.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
> > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
public
> > >money
> > >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
> > > >The Government representing a FAITH or Religion
>is
> > > >against the Constitution Mr. Hansen. Allowing a
> > >moment
> > > >to pray does not.
> > > >
> > > >Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the
>people
> > >get
> > > >only the same amount of time as the other 5%.
The
> > > >government represents people, not Gods, so it
> >should
> > > >be the people, not Gods that get equal time.
> > > >
> > > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force
people
>to
> > > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do not
>force
> > > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it is
> > > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because you
>are
> > > >preventing them from practicing their faith and
> > > >forcing them to practice another.
> > > >
> > > >What you are saying is that because my moment
of
> > > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot
>practice
> > >it.
> > > >This is the state stopping me from my free
>exercise
> > >of
> > > >religion.
> > > >
> > > >Donovan J Arnold
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -
> > > > >
> > > > > I would be more than willing to support
prayer
> >at
> > > > > all city council sessions,
> > > > > provided that each (and EVERY) faith
>represented
> > > > > within Moscow is provided
> > > > > "equal time".
> > > > >
> > > > > Lacking this possibility, the session
further
> > >lacks
> > > > > equality. And I am
> > > > > certain that you wouldn't want that, now
would
> > >you?
> > > > >
> > > > > Enough said.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > > >
> > > > > "If not us, who?
> > > > > If not now, when?"
> > > > >
> > > > > - Unknown
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > >
> > > > > From: Donovan Arnold
> > > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05 at yahoo.com]
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM
> > > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;
> > > > > vision2020 at momoscowom
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
> >public
> > > > > money
> > > > >
> > > > > Mr. Hansen,
> > > > >
> > > > > You are only offering circular arguments. A
> > >speaker
> > > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at a
>meeting
> > > > > too.
> > > > > You silly man. So why not let those that
>believe
> > >in
> > > > > praying before conducting important business
> >pray
> > > > > and
> > > > > those that wish not to think about something
> >else.
> > > > > Why
> > > > > should those that wish to pray be denied. If
>you
> > > > > allow
> > > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If you
> > > > > disallow
> > > > > prayer only those that wish not to pray get
>what
> > > > > they
> > > > > want.
> > > > >
> > > > > Donovan J Arnold
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>____________________________________________________
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> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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> > >
> >
>
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> >
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> >
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