[Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Donovan Arnold
donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com
Thu Aug 18 16:10:11 PDT 2005
Sunil,
You wrote, "I think state-sponsored prayer IS state
religion."
You are wrong. Prayer is not A religion. All or most
religions PRAY or have some type or concept of PRAYER.
So the state is not forcing a religion on anyone by
allowing a moment for prayer. Nor is it promoting one
religion over another. If do not want to pray, you do
not have too, but do not prevent others. I would also
like to point out that both the State and Federal
governments use public prayer before their meeting.
Donovan J Arnold
--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
wrote:
---------------------------------
I think we're communicating, but we don't agree. I
think state-sponsored prayer IS state religion. When
the group you're describing as the minority has to sit
there while the group you define as the majority says
their prayer prior to public business, then your
majority is jamming its religion down the minority's
throat. What you want your minority to do is succumb
to the disrespect of a majority apparently intent on
forcing its religion on them.
I don't claim a constitutional right not to have to
see religious symbols or hear prayer; that's a straw
man about to tip over. I do have a right not to have
the state promote one religion over another. I'm not
going to make other people have to listen to
Episcopalian prayers at public meetings, and in
exchange I expect to be able to skip the Baptist or
Muslim prayers too.
Again, how much good is Bush's praying doing in
influencing his decisions? You see the Divine in his
actions?
Sunil
---------------------------------
From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
money
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:36:10 -0700 (PDT)
>Sunil,
>
>We are not communicating obviously. I do not support
>state religion. I just oppose the government telling
>me I cannot pray and banning religion. Nor do I
>believe that persons have a constitutional right not
>to see or hear praying or religious symbols.
>
>It just irritates me that people are so intolerant
>they cannot give people 15 seconds to say a prayer or
>the courteous of being able to express themselves.
>Asking for one minute is not an unreasonable request
>of the minority to give to the majority. People can
be
>so disrespectful sometimes.
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>Donovan,
>
>Others have already pointed out the Supreme Court
>decisions interpreting the Constitution. That works
>for me. I have lived in a country with a state
>religion, and I've always appreciated the difference
>between that approach and ours. I disagree with your
>views on state action and religion, and am grateful
>the issue has been settled.
>
>Sunil
>
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>
>From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
>To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>,
>vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
>money
>Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 20:27:26 -0700 (PDT)
> >Sunil,
> >
> >Can you please quote me in the Constitution where
it
> >says you have a right to be protected from being
> >around religion and prayer? Because I cannot find.
I
> >do see where it says the government cannot stop me
> >from practicing my religion, but I cannot find
where
> >it says people have to hide all religious writings,
> >symbols, and speak out of the earshot of anyone
that
> >may not wish to listen?
> >
> >
> >If you are looking to save time at a public meeting
> >there are areas that you can cut out that will save
> >more time than the prayer. But again, where does it
> >say that public meetings should run in the most
> >efficient manner as to not waste time or upset
>Sunil's
> >schedule?
> >
> >"It does not follow that you are being forced to
> >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public
> >meeting."
> >
> >Maybe not, but it does follow that if you are
> >preventing us from praying you are preventing us
from
> >practicing our religion is says we are suppose to
> >pray. Nor is allowing for prayer forcing a religion
>or
> >establishing a religion.
> >
> >Donovan J Arnold
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam at hotmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >Donovan,
> >
> >I want you to be able to say all the prayers you
>want,
> >whenever and wherever you want, as long as you
want,
> >as long as I don't have to hear them. I want you
to
> >practice your religion, but not at the expense of
my
> >time if it's at a public meeting. If we're at your
> >church, I'm more than willing to listen to you pray
> >out loud, because I have the simple choice of not
> >going there at all.
> >
> >It does not follow that you are being forced to
> >practice atheism if you don't pray at a public
> >meeting. You're not going to be dragged to a
gulag,
> >or barred from private prayer or from attending
your
> >church. You're simply not going to be able to use
up
> >other people's time at a public meeting for
something
> >you can do silently at that meeting.
> >
> >Politicians want to pray at public meetings so they
> >can act pious for the cameras and the public. You
> >think W's praying is working out well for us?
> >
> >sunil
> >
> >
> >
> >---------------------------------
> >
> >From: Donovan Arnold
<donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
> >To: Tom Hansen <thansen at moscow.com>,
> >joanopyr at earthlink.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
> >money
> >Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:31:15 -0700 (PDT)
> > >The Government representing a FAITH or Religion
is
> > >against the Constitution Mr. Hansen. Allowing a
> >moment
> > >to pray does not.
> > >
> > >Further, it would be unfair that 95% of the
people
> >get
> > >only the same amount of time as the other 5%. The
> > >government represents people, not Gods, so it
>should
> > >be the people, not Gods that get equal time.
> > >
> > >Finally, by not allowing prayer you force people
to
> > >follow atheism, by allowing prayer you do not
force
> > >atheists to say the prayer. Therefore, it is
> > >discriminatory NOT to allow prayer because you
are
> > >preventing them from practicing their faith and
> > >forcing them to practice another.
> > >
> > >What you are saying is that because my moment of
> > >worship does not suit everybody, I cannot
practice
> >it.
> > >This is the state stopping me from my free
exercise
> >of
> > >religion.
> > >
> > >Donovan J Arnold
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- Tom Hansen <ththansenomoscowom> wrote:
> > >
> > > > As I have stated twice before, Arnold -
> > > >
> > > > I would be more than willing to support prayer
>at
> > > > all city council sessions,
> > > > provided that each (and EVERY) faith
represented
> > > > within Moscow is provided
> > > > "equal time".
> > > >
> > > > Lacking this possibility, the session further
> >lacks
> > > > equality. And I am
> > > > certain that you wouldn't want that, now would
> >you?
> > > >
> > > > Enough said.
> > > >
> > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > >
> > > > "If not us, who?
> > > > If not now, when?"
> > > >
> > > > - Unknown
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > >
> > > > From: Donovan Arnold
> > > > [mamailtoodonovanjarnold05 at yahoo.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:57 PM
> > > > To: Tom Hansen; jojoanopyraearthlinket;
> > > > vision2020 at momoscowom
> > > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Public prayer on
>public
> > > > money
> > > >
> > > > Mr. Hansen,
> > > >
> > > > You are only offering circular arguments. A
> >speaker
> > > > can also ignore a prayer completely at a
meeting
> > > > too.
> > > > You silly man. So why not let those that
believe
> >in
> > > > praying before conducting important business
>pray
> > > > and
> > > > those that wish not to think about something
>else.
> > > > Why
> > > > should those that wish to pray be denied. If
you
> > > > allow
> > > > prayer, everyone gets what they want. If you
> > > > disallow
> > > > prayer only those that wish not to pray get
what
> > > > they
> > > > want.
> > > >
> > > > Donovan J Arnold
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>____________________________________________________
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> > >
> >
>
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> >
>
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>
>_____________________________________________________
> > > List services made available by First Step
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> > >
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> > >
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> > >
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