[Vision2020] Public prayer on public money

[keely emerinemix]

Donovan, I don't believe there's a lot of evidence to confirm that 
government bodies are serious about seeking the Lord in their every 
deliberation and so that's why they start out with prayer, but you're 
entitled to your view, of course.  Your contention that I treat prayer and 
sex similarly is really too silly for me to comment further on, tempting 
though it may be.

keely


From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>, joanopyr at earthlink.net,  
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 16:14:30 -0700 (PDT)

Keely,

Why you insist upon treating public prayer in the same
category as sex, "it is fine as long as it is done in
private and in a manner that does not offend anyone",
is beyond me.

If you truly are religious, or spiritual etc, you
would understand how important seeking God's guidance
is when making important decisions that impact the
welfare of the community.

You can separate religion from public events, but
prayer is NOT religion, nor is it forcing people to
pray or pray in a particular manner, it is simply
allowing time for people to seek guidance from their
God or Gods before doing something important. Why do
you oppose this? They are NOT implementing policy into
their laws like no meat on Sundays or women shall obey
her husband at all times. Why should people be
prevented from practicing their faith because others
might be offended? What harm is caused by the
unbeliever to pause for one minute while others
fulfill their commitment to their creator and ask for
guidance?

Ask your God(s) if He wants the government to deny
people a moment with Him/Her when they need Him/Her?

Donovan J Arnold




--- keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

 > Donovan,
 >
 > I promise that if I see you and friends praying
 > quietly on the street
 > corner, I won't beat you up or anything, and I'm not
 > trying to suggest that
 > the way I do ANYTHING is the only right way.
 >
 > Obviously a church worship service or prayer meeting
 > or Bible study is not
 > private.  It involves two or more people, and,
 > therefore, the prayer is
 > "public" prayer.  That really wasn't what I was
 > talking about, though.   I'm
 > sorry you weren't able to understand that I was
 > writing in the context of
 > public prayer in civic circumstances where the
 > business at hand is not
 > "religious" and the participants are likely of
 > different faiths.   And
 > before you jump all over me for separating religion
 > from other stuff, try to
 > remember that it's precisely because faith is so
 > important to me that I
 > believe it shouldn't be displayed at convenient or
 > scheduled times, but
 > instead fill us with righteousness that shows
 > through our every action.
 >
 > I'm guessing that you know that, and so it might be
 > good for you to announce
 > in public your disagreement with everything I write,
 > in case anyone is under
 > the impression that we're actually discussing
 > something.
 >
 > keely
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
 > To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>,
 > joanopyr at earthlink.net,
 > vision2020 at moscow.com
 > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
 > money
 > Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:14:57 -0700 (PDT)
 >
 > Keely,
 >
 > You wrote:
 >
 > "It isn't necessary for me to stop, announce that
 > it's
 > time to pray, and then recite some invocation.  It
 > also isn't, according to Christ, desireable."
 >
 > The Bible disagrees with your testimony:
 >
 > ‘Where two or more are gathered in my name there am
 > I
 > in the midst of them.’(Matthew 18:20)
 >
 > If people are going to meet and pray together, they
 > need to announce it, either by word of mouth or in
 > written text.
 >
 > Further, God commands that we worship Him at all
 > times, especially when we make important decisions
 > in
 > life that impact others.
 >
 > I know God is there when I go to Church or pray with
 > groups of people in a public or private location.
 > For
 > others to try and stop me is futile. Praying in
 > public
 > is not the same as praying for show. Jesus Christ
 > prayed in public with others.
 >
 > I think it is great that you have conversations with
 > God. However, to state that others must pray by
 > themselves in only a conversational manner I think
 > is
 > wrong. There are many different ways and reasons to
 > pray, to name a few:
 >
 > 1: To talk to God and build a personal relationship
 > 2: For admiration and adoration of your creator
 > 3: To ask for His strength to fulfill his will
 >
 > That you require others to pray YOUR WAY, I think is
 > more of an establishment of a religion than just
 > allowing people to worship in a manner they believe
 > God has commanded them to do.
 >
 > Donovan J Arnold
 >
 >
 >
 > --- keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:
 >
 >  > I'm wondering if maybe the arguments we've seen,
 >  > both for and against civic,
 >  > public prayer, miss the point.
 >  >
 >  > I pray many, many times during the day, and if
 > you
 >  > were with me, you likely
 >  > wouldn't have any idea when.  Why?  Because my
 >  > prayers are conversational,
 >  > directed to a God with whom I have relationship
 > by
 >  > grace through faith.  It
 >  > isn't necessary for me to stop, announce that
 > it's
 >  > time to pray, and then
 >  > recite some invocation.  It also isn't, according
 > to
 >  > Christ, desireable.
 >  >
 >  > Prayer flowing from relationship is powerful,
 >  > meaningful, and generally
 >  > private.  Prayer that appears on the agenda,
 >  > somewhere between roll call and
 >  > the Pledge of Allegiance (but always before the
 >  > approval of minutes!),  is
 >  > generally impotent, empty, and ostentatious.
 > Why?
 >  > Because it doesn't come
 >  > from an individual's relationship with God, but
 >  > instead comes from the
 >  > misguided idea that as a nation, we need to
 > display
 >  > our piety not in our
 >  > actions, but in our rituals.  Jesus condemned not
 >  > only the showiness of
 >  > public prayer, but also the idea that we could
 > act
 >  > as we like, confident
 >  > that our rituals and traditions would cover us.
 > We
 >  > would be much better off
 >  > as a people if our leaders cultivated love,
 > justice,
 >  > and servitude in public
 >  > and worshipped in Spirit and truth in private.
 >  >
 >  > By the way, there is a lot of prayer -- private,
 >  > sincere, worshipful -- in
 >  > the public schools.  What isn't there is the
 > rote,
 >  > instituted and feeble
 >  > recitations of inoffensive pabulum to an
 > inoffensive
 >  > god, and for that I
 >  > praise my God.  He has not been "kicked out" of
 >  > public schools, government
 >  > meetings, or anywhere else -- but we certainly
 > make
 >  > him unwelcome by hanging
 >  > our gaudy, showy prayer streamers and balloons at
 >  > the doors.
 >  >
 >  > keely emerine mix
 >  >
 >  >
 >  > From: Donovan Arnold
 > <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
 >  > To: joanopyr at earthlink.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
 >  > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
 >  > money
 >  > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:04:49 -0700 (PDT)
 >  >
 >  > Saying a prayer before a public meeting is not an
 >  > establishment of religion. Establishment of
 > religion
 >  > is when the government, king, dictator, etc.
 >  > supports,
 >  > funds and defines a religion as the official
 >  > religion
 >  > of a nation or state. In the past, the government
 >  > would often give special privilege to those that
 >  > practiced that official established religion. In
 >  > some
 >  > cases, people were killed or persecuted for not
 >  > following the faith as prescribed by the
 > government.
 >  > This is what the establishment of religion means,
 >  > and
 >  > what was meant when the forefathers wrote the
 >  > Constitution. How do we know? Because US Congress
 >  > has
 >  > always had prayer before business. So people can
 >  > twist
 >  > it all they want, but it was not meant to prevent
 >  > prayer before a public meeting.
 >  >
 >  > It is not true to say the 1st amendment was
 > designed
 >
=== message truncated ===



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