[Vision2020] Public prayer on public money

[keely emerinemix]

Donovan,

I promise that if I see you and friends praying quietly on the street 
corner, I won't beat you up or anything, and I'm not trying to suggest that 
the way I do ANYTHING is the only right way.

Obviously a church worship service or prayer meeting or Bible study is not 
private.  It involves two or more people, and, therefore, the prayer is 
"public" prayer.  That really wasn't what I was talking about, though.   I'm 
sorry you weren't able to understand that I was writing in the context of 
public prayer in civic circumstances where the business at hand is not 
"religious" and the participants are likely of different faiths.   And 
before you jump all over me for separating religion from other stuff, try to 
remember that it's precisely because faith is so important to me that I 
believe it shouldn't be displayed at convenient or scheduled times, but 
instead fill us with righteousness that shows through our every action.

I'm guessing that you know that, and so it might be good for you to announce 
in public your disagreement with everything I write, in case anyone is under 
the impression that we're actually discussing something.

keely




From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com>, joanopyr at earthlink.net,  
vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2005 14:14:57 -0700 (PDT)

Keely,

You wrote:

"It isn't necessary for me to stop, announce that it's
time to pray, and then recite some invocation.  It
also isn't, according to Christ, desireable."

The Bible disagrees with your testimony:

‘Where two or more are gathered in my name there am I
in the midst of them.’(Matthew 18:20)

If people are going to meet and pray together, they
need to announce it, either by word of mouth or in
written text.

Further, God commands that we worship Him at all
times, especially when we make important decisions in
life that impact others.

I know God is there when I go to Church or pray with
groups of people in a public or private location. For
others to try and stop me is futile. Praying in public
is not the same as praying for show. Jesus Christ
prayed in public with others.

I think it is great that you have conversations with
God. However, to state that others must pray by
themselves in only a conversational manner I think is
wrong. There are many different ways and reasons to
pray, to name a few:

1: To talk to God and build a personal relationship
2: For admiration and adoration of your creator
3: To ask for His strength to fulfill his will

That you require others to pray YOUR WAY, I think is
more of an establishment of a religion than just
allowing people to worship in a manner they believe
God has commanded them to do.

Donovan J Arnold



--- keely emerinemix <kjajmix1 at msn.com> wrote:

 > I'm wondering if maybe the arguments we've seen,
 > both for and against civic,
 > public prayer, miss the point.
 >
 > I pray many, many times during the day, and if you
 > were with me, you likely
 > wouldn't have any idea when.  Why?  Because my
 > prayers are conversational,
 > directed to a God with whom I have relationship by
 > grace through faith.  It
 > isn't necessary for me to stop, announce that it's
 > time to pray, and then
 > recite some invocation.  It also isn't, according to
 > Christ, desireable.
 >
 > Prayer flowing from relationship is powerful,
 > meaningful, and generally
 > private.  Prayer that appears on the agenda,
 > somewhere between roll call and
 > the Pledge of Allegiance (but always before the
 > approval of minutes!),  is
 > generally impotent, empty, and ostentatious.  Why?
 > Because it doesn't come
 > from an individual's relationship with God, but
 > instead comes from the
 > misguided idea that as a nation, we need to display
 > our piety not in our
 > actions, but in our rituals.  Jesus condemned not
 > only the showiness of
 > public prayer, but also the idea that we could act
 > as we like, confident
 > that our rituals and traditions would cover us.  We
 > would be much better off
 > as a people if our leaders cultivated love, justice,
 > and servitude in public
 > and worshipped in Spirit and truth in private.
 >
 > By the way, there is a lot of prayer -- private,
 > sincere, worshipful -- in
 > the public schools.  What isn't there is the rote,
 > instituted and feeble
 > recitations of inoffensive pabulum to an inoffensive
 > god, and for that I
 > praise my God.  He has not been "kicked out" of
 > public schools, government
 > meetings, or anywhere else -- but we certainly make
 > him unwelcome by hanging
 > our gaudy, showy prayer streamers and balloons at
 > the doors.
 >
 > keely emerine mix
 >
 >
 > From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
 > To: joanopyr at earthlink.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
 > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public
 > money
 > Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:04:49 -0700 (PDT)
 >
 > Saying a prayer before a public meeting is not an
 > establishment of religion. Establishment of religion
 > is when the government, king, dictator, etc.
 > supports,
 > funds and defines a religion as the official
 > religion
 > of a nation or state. In the past, the government
 > would often give special privilege to those that
 > practiced that official established religion. In
 > some
 > cases, people were killed or persecuted for not
 > following the faith as prescribed by the government.
 > This is what the establishment of religion means,
 > and
 > what was meant when the forefathers wrote the
 > Constitution. How do we know? Because US Congress
 > has
 > always had prayer before business. So people can
 > twist
 > it all they want, but it was not meant to prevent
 > prayer before a public meeting.
 >
 > It is not true to say the 1st amendment was designed
 > to prevent public prayer. Nor is saying a prayer
 > establishment of a religion. God is on our money and
 > in our pledge and those that try to remove it are
 > just
 > idiots with obvious nothing better to do than bitch
 > and complain and force themselves on everyone else.
 > It
 > is my belief that a few people are trying to prevent
 > me and others from practicing our religion and
 > prayer.
 > Those that do this are forcing their beliefs on me
 > and
 > 95% of those that wish to worship and appreciate
 > what
 > God has given them. If you do not want to pray,
 > DON'T
 > PRAY, nobody is forcing you to, but do not prevent
 > the
 > rest of us from doing so.
 >
 > Donovan J Arnold
 >
 >
 >
 > --- Joan Opyr <joanopyr at earthlink.net> wrote:
 >
 >  > Kai writes (as per):
 >  >
 >  > > The First Amendment of the Constitution of the
 >  > United States of America
 >  > > Congress shall make no law respecting an
 >  > establishment of religion, or
 >  > > prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
 >  > abridging the freedom of speech,
 >  > > or of the press; or the right of the people
 >  > peaceably to assemble, and to
 >  > > petition the Government for a redress of
 >  > grievances.
 >  > >
 >  > > I don't see anything in there that says they
 >  > "can't" pray beforehand....
 >  > As
 >  > > a matter of fact I see that it say "prohibiting
 >  > the free exercise
 >  > thereof".
 >  > > I don't see anything that says "except in
 > public
 >  > buildings".
 >  > > Seems to me people are free to join in....or
 > not.
 >  >
 >  > And it seems to me that every single court that
 > has
 >  > considered this case
 >  > (on up to the Supreme Court, which allowed the
 > lower
 >  > court ruling to stand)
 >  > has agreed that the Great Falls City Council has
 > no
 >  > business conducting
 >  > public prayers of any sort.  That, if you'll
 > recall,
 >  > was the gist of the
 >  > CNN story Wayne forwarded to the list.  Your
 > reading
 >  > of the First
 >  > Amendment, Kai, while no doubt shared by many
 >  > citizens both here and in
 >  > Great Falls, was not and is not shared by the
 >  > courts.  Why?  Because while
 >  > the members of the Great Falls City Council may
 > pray
 >  > all they like in
 >  > private -- and, as individuals, there's nothing
 > to
 >  > stop any council member
 >  > from praying before, during, or after a city
 > council
 >  > meeting -- but
 >  > *conducting* public prayers amounts to the
 >  > establishment of a particular
 >  > religion for the citizens of Great Falls.  (The
 >  > important word in the
 >  > preceding sentence is "establishment," as in
 >  > Establishment Clause,
 >  > violation of.)
 >  >
 >  > FYI, the "you can join in or not while we pray to
 >  > the God of our choice"
 >  > argument was long ago rejected as a rationale for
 >  > prayer in public schools.
 >  > It should come as a surprise to no one that this
 >  > argument has been rejected
 >  > in the Great Falls case.  The Great Falls City
 >  > Council has just thrown --
 >  > what was it?  $65,000? out the window arguing a
 > case
 >  > that was settled (as
 >  > Melynda has pointed out) back in 1963.
 >  >
 >  > Now, should the Moscow City Council decide to
 > pray
 >  > to the Flying Spaghetti
 >  > Monster (www.venganza.com), I might have to
 > change
 >  > sides on this issue.  I
 >  > might have to join with the Reverend Boyardee to
 >  > fight for their right to
 >  > waste our tax dollars worshipping meatballs and
 >  > marinara.
 >  >
 >  > Maybe we could ask Gambino's to cater city
 > council
 >  > meetings?  Holy Eggplant
 >  > Parmesan!
 >  >
 >  > Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
 >  > www.auntie-establishment.com
 >  >
 >
=== message truncated ===

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