[Vision2020] Public prayer on public money

[keely emerinemix]

I'm wondering if maybe the arguments we've seen, both for and against civic, 
public prayer, miss the point.

I pray many, many times during the day, and if you were with me, you likely 
wouldn't have any idea when.  Why?  Because my prayers are conversational, 
directed to a God with whom I have relationship by grace through faith.  It 
isn't necessary for me to stop, announce that it's time to pray, and then 
recite some invocation.  It also isn't, according to Christ, desireable.

Prayer flowing from relationship is powerful, meaningful, and generally 
private.  Prayer that appears on the agenda, somewhere between roll call and 
the Pledge of Allegiance (but always before the approval of minutes!),  is 
generally impotent, empty, and ostentatious.  Why?  Because it doesn't come 
from an individual's relationship with God, but instead comes from the 
misguided idea that as a nation, we need to display our piety not in our 
actions, but in our rituals.  Jesus condemned not only the showiness of 
public prayer, but also the idea that we could act as we like, confident 
that our rituals and traditions would cover us.  We would be much better off 
as a people if our leaders cultivated love, justice, and servitude in public 
and worshipped in Spirit and truth in private.

By the way, there is a lot of prayer -- private, sincere, worshipful -- in 
the public schools.  What isn't there is the rote, instituted and feeble 
recitations of inoffensive pabulum to an inoffensive god, and for that I 
praise my God.  He has not been "kicked out" of public schools, government 
meetings, or anywhere else -- but we certainly make him unwelcome by hanging 
our gaudy, showy prayer streamers and balloons at the doors.

keely emerine mix


From: Donovan Arnold <donovanjarnold2005 at yahoo.com>
To: joanopyr at earthlink.net, vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Public prayer on public money
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 23:04:49 -0700 (PDT)

Saying a prayer before a public meeting is not an
establishment of religion. Establishment of religion
is when the government, king, dictator, etc. supports,
funds and defines a religion as the official religion
of a nation or state. In the past, the government
would often give special privilege to those that
practiced that official established religion. In some
cases, people were killed or persecuted for not
following the faith as prescribed by the government.
This is what the establishment of religion means, and
what was meant when the forefathers wrote the
Constitution. How do we know? Because US Congress has
always had prayer before business. So people can twist
it all they want, but it was not meant to prevent
prayer before a public meeting.

It is not true to say the 1st amendment was designed
to prevent public prayer. Nor is saying a prayer
establishment of a religion. God is on our money and
in our pledge and those that try to remove it are just
idiots with obvious nothing better to do than bitch
and complain and force themselves on everyone else. It
is my belief that a few people are trying to prevent
me and others from practicing our religion and prayer.
Those that do this are forcing their beliefs on me and
95% of those that wish to worship and appreciate what
God has given them. If you do not want to pray, DON'T
PRAY, nobody is forcing you to, but do not prevent the
rest of us from doing so.

Donovan J Arnold



--- Joan Opyr <joanopyr at earthlink.net> wrote:

 > Kai writes (as per):
 >
 > > The First Amendment of the Constitution of the
 > United States of America
 > > Congress shall make no law respecting an
 > establishment of religion, or
 > > prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or
 > abridging the freedom of speech,
 > > or of the press; or the right of the people
 > peaceably to assemble, and to
 > > petition the Government for a redress of
 > grievances.
 > >
 > > I don't see anything in there that says they
 > "can't" pray beforehand....
 > As
 > > a matter of fact I see that it say "prohibiting
 > the free exercise
 > thereof".
 > > I don't see anything that says "except in public
 > buildings".
 > > Seems to me people are free to join in....or not.
 >
 > And it seems to me that every single court that has
 > considered this case
 > (on up to the Supreme Court, which allowed the lower
 > court ruling to stand)
 > has agreed that the Great Falls City Council has no
 > business conducting
 > public prayers of any sort.  That, if you'll recall,
 > was the gist of the
 > CNN story Wayne forwarded to the list.  Your reading
 > of the First
 > Amendment, Kai, while no doubt shared by many
 > citizens both here and in
 > Great Falls, was not and is not shared by the
 > courts.  Why?  Because while
 > the members of the Great Falls City Council may pray
 > all they like in
 > private -- and, as individuals, there's nothing to
 > stop any council member
 > from praying before, during, or after a city council
 > meeting -- but
 > *conducting* public prayers amounts to the
 > establishment of a particular
 > religion for the citizens of Great Falls.  (The
 > important word in the
 > preceding sentence is "establishment," as in
 > Establishment Clause,
 > violation of.)
 >
 > FYI, the "you can join in or not while we pray to
 > the God of our choice"
 > argument was long ago rejected as a rationale for
 > prayer in public schools.
 > It should come as a surprise to no one that this
 > argument has been rejected
 > in the Great Falls case.  The Great Falls City
 > Council has just thrown --
 > what was it?  $65,000? out the window arguing a case
 > that was settled (as
 > Melynda has pointed out) back in 1963.
 >
 > Now, should the Moscow City Council decide to pray
 > to the Flying Spaghetti
 > Monster (www.venganza.com), I might have to change
 > sides on this issue.  I
 > might have to join with the Reverend Boyardee to
 > fight for their right to
 > waste our tax dollars worshipping meatballs and
 > marinara.
 >
 > Maybe we could ask Gambino's to cater city council
 > meetings?  Holy Eggplant
 > Parmesan!
 >
 > Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
 > www.auntie-establishment.com
 >
 >
 >
 >
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 >
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 >
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