[Vision2020] What Republicans Believe

Mon Oct 25 15:53:20 PDT 2004

Donovan,

  It appears that you got the wrong idea from my last post. Which is 
perfectly fair, because I did a very poor job of conveying the right one. My 
apologies. What I had intended to suggest is not that I am for -lowering- 
the voting age;  I will be one of the first in line to suggest that such a 
course of action would probably not be as fruitful as one might hope. But I 
-am- against raising it. I was simply stating that, from my experience, 
spending two years almost completely inside the system but not being allowed 
to vote on how that system was being run, was a bit frustrating. 
Understandable, sure, but not fun. I would not like to see that extended to 
five years. While there would be many who wouldn't care, there also would be 
many who would, and those people then could end up starting off their adult 
lives feeling frustrated and disenfranchised by the voting system.

  As to the rest of your post, I am inclined to agree. Partially. I hang out 
with teenagers and people in their early 20's on a fairly regular basis. Not 
all of them are people I want deciding the fate of our country. But, as I 
implied before, I know people who are 10, 20, 50 years older than me who I 
would not want having a say in the fate of our country, either. Setting the 
legal voting age to adulthood (18) makes perfect sense to me. I see it as a 
small priveledge that one recieves in exchange for some potentially large 
sacrifices. Registering for selective services, moving out of the parent's 
house, furthering one's education (through college or the cold, sharp schock 
of entering the workforce immediately after high school,) and the multitude 
of tiny responsibilities that come with being a legal adult in the eyes of 
the state.

  Of course, teenagers make mistakes. Many of them make a lot of mistakes. 
Some, a lucky few, make a very small number of mistakes. Perhaps the votes 
they cast will be one of them - perhaps I will regret the votes I cast this 
november. Perhaps not. But I like to think of mistakes as learning 
experiences, whenever possible. Even if I ultimately come to regret my 
decisions, at least I can learn something from them. It sounds like you 
may've made a poor decision or two during your wilder, younger years. 
Perhaps you learned something from them; It certainly sounds like it. I like 
to think that the strapping young lads of this generation, myself included, 
will get the same oppertunity to learn something from thier poorly 
thought-out, hastily cast votes. But I suppose we'll see.

Take care,
-Mike

>From: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanarnold at hotmail.com>
>To: fueledbyramen at hotmail.com, vision2020 at moscow.com
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What Republicans Believe
>Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 06:52:13 -0700
>
>Mike,
>
>I was paying tax when I was 6 years old, I did yard work, got paid and 
>bought candy and pop, I paid sales and excise tax. I was paying income 
>taxes when I was 11 years old. Should I have been given the right to vote 
>then?
>
>It is a proven fact that teenagers think with different parts of the brain 
>than do older adults, particularly males. They think with the emotional 
>part, not the logical and reasoning centers of the brain. It doesn't't mean 
>you are stupid, arrogant, or not able to make decisions. It just means you 
>have not fully matured and emotions and hormones get in the way of thinking 
>clearly.
>There is a reason why young males are more likely to, crash a car, steal, 
>rob, rape, murder, start smoking, do drugs, etc. It is because their brain 
>operates differently than someone older and mature. Males don't fully 
>mature until after 26.
>
>I think the older you get your outlook changes. When I was 15 I was a 
>genius and knew everything and my parents were stupid. Now that I am 30, I 
>am stupid, and my parents are geniuses.  I really wish that I was not 
>allowed to vote until I was 21. I really regret almost every vote I cast 
>between 18-21.
>
>I do think also that most teenagers are capable of voting, but many still 
>are not.
>
>Donovan J Arnold
>
>>From: "Mike Weatherford" <fueledbyramen at hotmail.com>
>>To: vision2020 at moscow.com
>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What Republicans Believe
>>Date: Sat, 23 Oct 2004 14:34:16 -0700
>>
>>Pat,
>>
>>  While I appreciate your wish to have educated voters, there is a problem 
>>with your idea. See, I am currently 19 years old. I have been paying taxes 
>>on my paycheques since I was 16. I was only able to vote after I turned 
>>18. This offended me. I was a tax-paying citizen starting at age 16. And 
>>I, with no say in my representation, simply forked it over.
>>
>>  I don't have any problem paying taxes. They are a necessary evil. But I 
>>have a problem not being allowed to vote on how my money is spent, even in 
>>an indirect fashion. At age 16, I was old enough to drive, to work, to 
>>give blood, even, had my parents not been the loving and understanding 
>>people they were(and are), to sue them for separation and find my own 
>>place to live. But I could not vote.
>>
>>  The voting age used to be 21. Were that still the case, things would 
>>change slightly. I still wouldn't be allowed to vote. I am old enough to 
>>smoke, attend college, live wherever I chose, and, should it become an 
>>issue, die for my country. I can own a gun. But I wouldn't be able to 
>>vote. Dropping the voting age to 18 was a good thing, in my opinion. Why?
>>
>>  Your argument that people should not be allowed to vote until they are 
>>30 and/or well educated does not hold water. Being 30 does not make 
>>someone smarter than me. I knew people in western washington who were 30 
>>when I was 16, and I was far and away the smarter individual between the 
>>two of us. I know people who are retirement age, and I cringe every time I 
>>think of them casting a vote. Being well-educated is a step in the right 
>>direction. But how shall we enforce that? High school transcripts? College 
>>transcripts? A test at the polls? Perhaps that would be the best solution 
>>- we can make prospective voters take a test a the polls. Of course, in 
>>order to prevent unfair disenfranchisement after the fact, we could make 
>>it so that you could still vote if you could prove that your grandfather 
>>had voted. That might be nice. To make it easier on everyone involved, the 
>>test could be an in-depth survey of important names and dates from 
>>american history. In multiple choice format. Then only the smart and the 
>>lucky could vote. Never mind the fact that the date of Garfield's 
>>assassination has nothing to do with the current situation. It would prove 
>>that prospective votors were /well educated/, and that is all that 
>>matters.
>>
>>  I have a suggestion, though. If we are going to start taking away 
>>people's right to vote until they are old or smart enough, let's also take 
>>away their right to pay taxes. I think that would be nice. "Mr. 
>>Weatherford, your yearly income taxes are due." "Oh, I'm sorry sir, I 
>>failed my voter history test and am currently not represented in our 
>>lovely government." "Well then, I'm very sorry to have wasted your time. 
>>Have a nice year!" I was never a fan of paying taxes without getting a 
>>voice in my representatives, the ones that would determine how my 
>>hard-earned money was spent. Perhaps you, with your superior age and 
>>education, can remember a similar situation in our nation's history?
>>
>>  But I'm only a kid. I'm just 19 years old. I'm not even old enough to 
>>drink yet. I'm not old enough to remember how things were back in the good 
>>ole' days. I'm not well educated enough to be boring at parties. What do I 
>>know?
>>
>>-Mike Weatherford.
>>
>>
>>
>>>From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut at moscow.com>
>>>To: "vision2020" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] What Republicans Believe
>>>Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 15:34:00 -0700
>>>
>>>"How can arguments based on fact prevail in a nation where so many people
>>>know so little?"
>>>
>>>I couldn't agree more. I have come to the conclusion that people 
>>>shouldn't
>>>be allowed to vote until they are 30 and have finished serious classes 
>>>about
>>>the two parties and the candidates. AND about our history and what the
>>>different parts of our government actually do. I really am coming to 
>>>believe
>>>that some people just shouldn't have the vote. All these kids that Ophra 
>>>and
>>>others are getting registered only know what people are telling them. 
>>>They
>>>have not yet paid enough taxes, tried to start a business or gone far 
>>>enough
>>>in life to learn who they really are and what they really think. I know 
>>>that
>>>because I was one of them. When I talk to people about our history and 
>>>form
>>>of government I am well aware that too many people weren't listening in
>>>History classes.
>>>PK
>>
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