[Vision2020] Wilson is not a great mind, and neither am I
Eric Engerbretson
eric@eric-e.com
Wed, 26 May 2004 20:04:16 -0700
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Well, Nick, overall, I'll leave you with the last word.
But a couple of things--
> On May 26, 2004, at 11:46 AM, Nick Gier wrote:
>>
>> Hi Eric,
>>
>> Thanks for your civil response to the issue of accreditation of New=20=
>> St. Andrews College (NSA). I'm grateful that at least one member of=20=
>> the Wilson Gang is willing to respond on V2020.
You are exhibiting a couple of common misunderstandings. First of all,=20=
I don't consider myself a member of any Gang. I go to Christ Church as=20=
often as I am not out of town performing somewhere, but there are=20
certainly points on which Doug and I disagree. I like to think for=20
myself as much as possible. Yes, I will stand up for Doug and NSA when=20=
the occasion arises that I feel they are being misrepresented and=20
misunderstood. But I would stand up for members of any Gang if I felt=20
they were being bullied or lied about, regardless of their=20
philosophical beliefs.
Your other misunderstanding is that Jim Wilson is part of the "Wilson=20
Gang". Jim's organization, Community Christian Ministries, is not=20
affiliated with Christ Church-- it is a completely separate ministry. =20=
Jim and his two sons, Doug and Evan have some drastic differences in=20
doctrine. I should say, secondary, doctrines. But they would disagree=20=
on what is primary and what is secondary doctrine. They stand in three=20=
distinct positions. Doug's church is a complete separate entity from=20
Jim's church, and they both are separate entities from Evan's church. =20=
I would feel comfortable going to any of these three churches, but=20
there would be certain small points on which I would disagree with the=20=
pastor. My point is, the community is making a huge mistake when they=20=
lump these three gentlemen together.
One impressive thing about these guys is the way they work=20
with/tolerate each other. They are so concerned about causing=20
unnecessary divisiveness within the community that they (and Gordon=20
Wilson) meet once a week for an hour and a half or so, specifically to=20=
work on their differences and to focus on how to bring about as much=20
unity as possible and not to let their differences cause trouble. I=20
know this because they meet at the Nuart, and I have seen them meet for=20=
the last year, and overheard them debating, laughing, etc. One of the=20=
reasons I back them up when I get the chance is that they are four of=20
the finest men I have known. Regardless of what others say about them,=20=
and regardless of any area where I disagree with them.
>> As Jim Wilson's assistant and heir apparent, you cannot deny that you=20=
>> are part of this group.
Secondly, I can deny that I am part of "this" group, because "this"=20
group you refer to is three distinct churches and a book ministry. I=20
am not Jim Wilson's assistant. I haven't earned that high of an honor=20
yet. I am the manager of one of four Community Christian Ministries=20
bookstores. The other stores are in Logan UT, Pullman WA, & Gunnison=20
CO, also managed by three other guys who are not Jim's assistants. Jim=20=
simply heads the umbrella organization, CCM, that helps us be able to=20
manage our ministries as we see fit.
I would hate to be thought of as the face of Jim's ministry, because I=20=
say a lot of dumb things, and I'm not a theologian! :=AC)
I'm just a guitar picker who thinks there might be something more to=20
life. So I hope no one looks at me as the face of Community Christian=20=
Ministries. I'm just a worker bee. And I am certainly not an "heir" to=20=
anything of Jim's. Jim is a pastor who wisely counsels dozens of people=20=
every week. He has helped more people in this community in the last 30=20=
years than perhaps any other individual. I could no more step into his=20=
shoes than I could step into yours, Nick. I am trying to learn to help=20=
people with amateur counseling, but I would have to go to years of=20
school (or years of serious Bible study) to be a pastor. So I'm no heir=20=
apparent to Jim's ministry. I'm just the shopkeeper.
>> Finally, I beg to differ with you: Doug Wilson is not a "great mind"=20=
>> and neither am I, but thanks for the flattery. I have some very=20
>> strict standards for a "great mind." One rule of thumb might be the=20=
>> following: you know you are a great mind when good schools regularly=20=
>> offer courses on you. (In my field that would be courses on Plato,=20
>> Aristotle, Aquinas, Kant, Hegel, Wittgenstein, etc.) Now, in the=20
>> future, NSA might offer courses on Doug Wilson's thought, but I would=20=
>> strongly urge rejection of that "great mind" nomination.
Obviously, "great" is a perniciously relative term. Yes, your=20
standards of usage are higher than mine. I guess I was thinking of=20
minds on the Palouse. I would still call it an honor to be a great=20
mind on the Palouse. :=AC) I suppose if I was to use your standards I=20=
would say a "way great mind".
>> Incidentally, I don't think that the testimony of other conservative=20=
>> evangelical preachers is acceptable for "great mind" consideration. =20=
>> Sorry.
Again, you misunderstood me. When I said I have heard thousands of=20
preachers and speakers, and therefore I think DW is a great mind, I=20
wasn't saying I have heard thousands giving "testimony" to DW's=20
greatmindedness. I was saying I have heard thousands preach and teach=20=
and speak, and as a result of my experience, and in comparing DW's=20
speaking to that of everyone else I've heard-- I believe DW is a great=20=
mind.
>
>> Eric, just one last question. Where in this response or the previous=20=
>> one have I been insisting on my own "religious principles"? I would=20=
>> really like to know.
What I was referring to was your repeated statements of what "ought" to=20=
be, what "should" be, what is right and what is wrong. These kind of=20
statements can only come from your worldview. If your worldview is=20
Christian or Buddhist it is religious. If your worldview is agnostic=20
or humanist it is religious. Your value judgements cannot come from a=20=
void of complete neutrality. If you say someone "ought" to do something=20=
(NSA "ought" to do such & such)-- you are making a religious statement.=20=
And your belief in institutions of learning that are "free of=20
religious and political ideology", is a blind faith if I've ever seen=20
one. The belief or pretense of neutrality which says Christianity,=20
Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, and Atheism are equally true and valid is a=20=
religion in itself that flies directly in the face of logic. God cannot=20=
exist and not exist simultaneously. Jesus Christ cannot have risen from=20=
the dead and not risen from the dead simultaneously. I'm all for an=20
institution that offers equal time and credit for studies in every=20
religion. And people from religions that I feel are wrong should be=20
treated as I would like to be treated, as the Bible commands. But when=20=
a professor says all are equally true, or equally an "opiate of the=20
masses", he is preaching a religion (something that's not supposed to=20
be allowed in a state school).
What I find humorous is that supposed "non-religious" people hate it=20
when Christians push their religion on others and try to tell them what=20=
is right and wrong. In so saying the "non-religious" person is pushing=20=
his religion on others and trying to tell them what is right and wrong.=20=
And he doesn't see the inherent hypocrisy.
And so, according to these folks, if DW tries to tell people what he=20
thinks is right and wrong, he is a religious freak supposedly trying to=20=
take over the Palouse. But if Nick or Joan tries to tell people what=20
is right and wrong they are simply normal, non-biased people trying to=20=
create a more tolerant and benevolent society for us all. Nick & Joan,=20=
et al, need to realize that they are religious, and that they, too, are=20=
trying to make the world see things the way they do.
If we would all just realize that we are all religious beings who=20
worship our worldviews, then we could all sit around and peacefully=20
debate and try to decide whose religion is closest to the truth,=20
without malice. But instead we resort to arrogance and name-calling.=20
And if we have a bunch of fancy letters after our name, our arrogance=20
and name-calling is supposed to be more legitimate.
Thoughtfully,
Eric E.
P.S. Couldn't agree more with the Max Planck quote. That is why I=20
believe in the words of the Bible. It is the one
source that ties absolutely everything together. Some religions satisfy=20=
the heart but necessarily leave the intellect
in the cold. Other religions satisfy the intellect but necessarily=20
leave the heart in the cold. Christianity is the one religion that=20
simultaneously satisfies both. This is why CS Lewis described himself=20
as "being dragged into the Christian faith kicking and screaming". He=20
disliked Christians, and didn't want to be one, but clearly saw this=20
truth and simply couldn't refute it. And he was a great mind by=20
anybody's definition.
>
> Thanks for the dialogue,
>
> Nick Gier
>
>
>
>
>
> "Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be=20=
> discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each=20=
> part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and=20=
> on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our=20
> intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between=20
> science, religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum=20=
> of its various parts." --Max Planck
>
> Nicholas F. Gier
> Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
> 1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
> http://users.moscow.com/ngier/home/index.htm
> 208-883-3360/882-9212/FAX 885-8950
> President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
> www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/ift/index.htm
>
>
> _____________________________________________________
> List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the=20
> communities of the Palouse since 1994. =20
> http://www.fsr.net =20
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
> =AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
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=AF=AF=AF=AF
>
>
The Nuart Theatre
208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org
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Well, Nick, overall, I'll leave you with the last word.
But a couple of things--
<excerpt>On May 26, 2004, at 11:46 AM, Nick Gier wrote:
<excerpt>
Hi Eric,
Thanks for your civil response to the issue of accreditation of New
St. Andrews College (NSA). I'm grateful that at least one member of
the Wilson Gang is willing to respond on V2020. =20
</excerpt></excerpt>
You are exhibiting a couple of common misunderstandings. First of
all, I don't consider myself a member of any Gang. I go to Christ
Church as often as I am not out of town performing somewhere, but
there are certainly points on which Doug and I disagree. I like to
think for myself as much as possible. Yes, I will stand up for Doug
and NSA when the occasion arises that I feel they are being
misrepresented and misunderstood. But I would stand up for members of
any Gang if I felt they were being bullied or lied about, regardless
of their philosophical beliefs.
Your other misunderstanding is that Jim Wilson is part of the "Wilson
Gang". Jim's organization, Community Christian Ministries, is not
affiliated with Christ Church-- it is a completely separate ministry.=20
Jim and his two sons, Doug and Evan have some drastic differences in
doctrine. I should say, <italic>secondary, </italic>doctrines. But
they would disagree on what is primary and what is secondary doctrine.
They stand in three distinct positions. Doug's church is a complete
separate entity from Jim's church, and they both are separate entities
from Evan's church. I would feel comfortable going to any of these
three churches, but there would be certain small points on which I
would disagree with the pastor. My point is, the community is making
a huge mistake when they lump these three gentlemen together. =20
One impressive thing about these guys is the way they work
with/tolerate each other. They are so concerned about causing
unnecessary divisiveness within the community that they (and Gordon
Wilson) meet once a week for an hour and a half or so, specifically to
work on their differences and to focus on how to bring about as much
unity as possible and not to let their differences cause trouble. I
know this because they meet at the Nuart, and I have seen them meet
for the last year, and overheard them debating, laughing, etc. One of
the reasons I back them up when I get the chance is that they are four
of the finest men I have known. Regardless of what others say about
them, and regardless of any area where I disagree with them.
<excerpt><excerpt>As Jim Wilson's assistant and heir apparent, you
cannot deny that you are part of this group.
</excerpt></excerpt>
Secondly, I <italic>can</italic> deny that I am part of "this" group,
because "this" group you refer to is three distinct churches and a
book ministry. I am not Jim Wilson's assistant. I haven't earned that
high of an honor yet. I am the manager of one of four Community
Christian Ministries bookstores. The other stores are in Logan UT,
Pullman WA, & Gunnison CO, also managed by three other guys who are
not Jim's assistants. Jim simply heads the umbrella organization,
CCM, that helps us be able to manage our ministries as we see fit. =20
I would hate to be thought of as the face of Jim's ministry, because I
say a lot of dumb things, and I'm not a theologian! :=AC)
I'm just a guitar picker who thinks there might be something more to
life. So I hope no one looks at me as the face of Community Christian
Ministries. I'm just a worker bee. And I am certainly not an "heir" to
anything of Jim's. Jim is a pastor who wisely counsels dozens of
people every week. He has helped more people in this community in the
last 30 years than perhaps any other individual. I could no more step
into his shoes than I could step into yours, Nick. I am trying to
learn to help people with amateur counseling, but I would have to go
to years of school (or years of serious Bible study) to be a pastor.
So I'm no heir apparent to Jim's ministry. I'm just the shopkeeper.
<excerpt><excerpt>Finally, I beg to differ with you: Doug Wilson is
not a "great mind" and neither am I, but thanks for the flattery. I
have some very strict standards for a "great mind." One rule of thumb
might be the following: you know you are a great mind when good
schools regularly offer courses on you. (In my field that would be
courses on Plato, Aristotle, Aquinas, Kant, Hegel, Wittgenstein, etc.)
Now, in the future, NSA might offer courses on Doug Wilson's thought,
but I would strongly urge rejection of that "great mind" nomination.
</excerpt></excerpt>
Obviously, "great" is a perniciously relative term. Yes, your
standards of usage are higher than mine. I guess I was thinking of
minds on the Palouse. I would still call it an honor to be a great
mind on the Palouse. :=AC) I suppose if I was to use your standards I
would say a "way great mind". =20
<excerpt><excerpt>Incidentally, I don't think that the testimony of
other conservative evangelical preachers is acceptable for "great
mind" consideration. Sorry.
</excerpt></excerpt>
Again, you misunderstood me. When I said I have heard thousands of
preachers and speakers, and therefore I think DW is a great mind, I
wasn't saying I have heard thousands giving "testimony" to DW's
greatmindedness. I was saying I have heard thousands preach and teach
and speak, and <italic>as a result of my experience, and in comparing
DW's speaking to that of everyone else I've heard-- </italic>I believe
DW is a great mind.<italic> </italic>
<excerpt>
<excerpt>Eric, just one last question. Where in this response or the
previous one have I been insisting on my own "religious principles"?=20
I would really like to know.
</excerpt></excerpt>
What I was referring to was your repeated statements of what "ought"
to be, what "should" be, what is right and what is wrong. These kind
of statements can only come from your worldview. If your worldview is
Christian or Buddhist it is religious. If your worldview is agnostic
or humanist it is religious. Your value judgements cannot come from a
void of complete neutrality. If you say someone "ought" to do
something (NSA "ought" to do such & such)-- you are making a religious
statement. And your belief in institutions of learning that are "free
of religious and political ideology", is a blind faith if I've ever
seen one. The belief or pretense of neutrality which says
Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, and Atheism are equally true
and valid is a religion in itself that flies directly in the face of
logic. God cannot exist and <italic>not</italic> exist simultaneously.
Jesus Christ cannot have risen from the dead and <italic>not</italic>
risen from the dead simultaneously. I'm all for an institution that
offers equal time and credit for studies in every religion. And people
from religions that I feel are wrong should be treated as I would like
to be treated, as the Bible commands. But when a professor says all
are equally true, or equally an "opiate of the masses", he is
preaching a religion (something that's not supposed to be allowed in a
state school).
What I find humorous is that supposed "non-religious" people hate it
when Christians push their religion on others and try to tell them
what is right and wrong. <italic>In so saying</italic> the
"non-religious" person is pushing his religion on others and trying to
tell them what is right and wrong. And he doesn't see the inherent
hypocrisy.=20
And so, according to these folks, if DW tries to tell people what he
thinks is right and wrong, he is a religious freak supposedly trying
to take over the Palouse. But if Nick or Joan tries to tell people
what is right and wrong they are simply normal, non-biased people
trying to create a more tolerant and benevolent society for us all.=20
Nick & Joan, et al, need to realize that they are religious, and that
they, too, are trying to make the world see things the way they do.
If we would all just realize that we are all religious beings who
worship our worldviews, then we could all sit around and peacefully
debate and try to decide whose religion is closest to the truth,
without malice. But instead we resort to arrogance and name-calling.
And if we have a bunch of fancy letters after our name, our arrogance
and name-calling is supposed to be more legitimate.
Thoughtfully,
Eric E.
P.S. Couldn't agree more with the Max Planck quote. That is why I
believe in the words of the Bible. It is the one
source that ties absolutely everything together. Some religions
satisfy the heart but necessarily leave the intellect
in the cold. Other religions satisfy the intellect but necessarily
leave the heart in the cold. Christianity is the one religion that
simultaneously satisfies both. This is why CS Lewis described himself
as "being dragged into the Christian faith kicking and screaming". He
disliked Christians, and didn't want to be one, but clearly saw this
truth and simply couldn't refute it. And he was a great mind by
anybody's definition.
<excerpt>
Thanks for the dialogue,
Nick Gier
"Modern physics has taught us that the nature of any system cannot be
discovered by dividing it into its component parts and studying each
part by itself. . . .We must keep our attention fixed on the whole and
on the interconnection between the parts. The same is true of our
intellectual life. It is impossible to make a clear cut between
science, religion, and art. The whole is never equal simply to the sum
of its various parts." --Max Planck
Nicholas F. Gier
Professor Emeritus, Department of Philosophy, University of Idaho
1037 Colt Rd., Moscow, ID 83843
http://users.moscow.com/ngier/home/index.htm
208-883-3360/882-9212/FAX 885-8950
President, Idaho Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO
www.class.uidaho.edu/ngier/ift/index.htm
_____________________________________________________
List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the
communities of the Palouse since 1994. =20
http://www.fsr.net =20
mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
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The Nuart =
Theatre</x-tad-bigger></bigger></color></fontfamily></italic></bold><bold>=
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m>
<smaller><smaller><x-tad-smaller>208-882-0459 (lobby, no message)
208-883-0997 (CCM, leave message)
516 S Main, Moscow ID 83843
eric@eric-e.com
http://www.ccmbooks.org
=
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