[Vision2020] Nick Gier; Response to Eric E.
bill london
london@moscow.com
Tue, 25 May 2004 14:28:11 -0700
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P-
And likewise, I am free to speak of Wilson's Neo-Confederate agenda and
his plans for subverting the rights of women, gays and anyone who does
not share his exact belief system.
BL
Pat Kraut wrote:
> And, until the day that Wilson or some of his church pick up guns and
> say we all have to believe exactly as they do they are free to do and
> say what they will. Its not 'Fire' in a crowded theatre.
> PK
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Eric Engerbretson <mailto:eric@eric-e.com>
> To: vision2020@moscow.com <mailto:vision2020@moscow.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nick Gier; Response to Eric E.
>
> Hi, Nick,
>
> Sorry for taking so long to respond, but the last week was one of
> the busiest ten days of my life.
>
> You, of course, made some great points that may be irrefutable (at
> least by me). But I'd like to mention a couple
> of things.
>
> On May 19, 2004, at 12:36 PM, Nick Gier wrote:
>
> The board and faculty of NSA have a clear choice. It can
> follow time honored procedures of academic collegiality (read:
> don't diss the UI) and academic standards (read: fewer Canon
> Press publications and more PhDs).
>
> Or not. And the question is: are they free to choose "not", or
> not? And who has the right to insist that they do? Would that
> right not be reserved for those paying for the education? What if
> those paying for the education are completely satisfied with the
> product they are receiving for their dollars, and they don't
> really care about the "accredidation" of that product?
>
> Eric, you are right when you say that by hiring "his own
> entire family" brings "more power to him," but an academic
> institution is not about personal power; rather, it's about
> learning in a open and free atmosphere free of religious and
> political ideology. I am stunned that you think it is OK for
> Wilson to hire his own family.
>
> Nick, I believe the question here is about freedom, in a country
> with the right of free speech--the right of a person to start a
> private business and run it however he wishes. Moscow Auto is a
> great auto repair facility. But there is definitely some nepotism
> going on there. A father has hired his sons. Now it would be silly
> for someone to have a problem with that, because it is a private
> institution with a very specific purpose.
>
> It would be silly to mock NSA because it doesn't have a forestry
> department. It would be silly to mock MIT because it focuses too
> heavily on certain things and doesn't offer a broad enough
> education. Your arguments about accredidation would be fine if NSA
> were receiving public funding. But it is a privately funded
> organization, and therefore it is free to do whatever it wishes,
> outside of crime. If NSA decides to make policy to hire only
> instructors from the Atwood family tree, then it is free to do so.
> The question is: are the people paying for the education happy
> with what they are getting? Now, if every year the graduates were
> raving about how they got duped and ripped off by unqualified
> instructors who didn't know what they were teaching-- then the
> Better Business Bureau ought to get involved and find applicable
> laws about false advertising, etc. But if NSA is cranking out
> happy customers who seem to be better educated in the specialties
> that they signed up for than the average college student, then
> shouldn't we leave them alone, and be glad for the freedoms this
> country stands for? Again, Mr. Wilson's quote seems applicable--
> "We love diversity until we actually get some." Shouldn't we be
> glad for diversity in education? Shouldn't we be glad there are
> specialty schools that meet people's needs? Isn't it silly to
> compare small specialty colleges to large universities?
>
> Now, if there has been actual deception involved with
> accredidation, then, of course, that is wrong, and you should call
> them on the carpet for it. But as for the nepotism charge-- you
> are "stunned that I think it is OK to hire family". I'm stunned
> that you think it's not! I thought this country was about freedom!
> If some Joe wants to stand up on a cracker box and call it a
> college, isn't he free to do so? ...as long as he does it with his
> own money? Under this system of freedom, isn't it supposed to be
> the cake that is judged and not the frosting? If you think NSA is
> a Joe on a cracker box, then mock away, but when NSA outputs
> students that score better on tests than kids from your own
> school, then you ought to think twice before mocking. That has
> been my main point all along. And of course NSA isn't going to
> give students a completely comprehensive education. It never
> intended to. It is a specialty school. And a completely
> comprehensive education is impossible at any university.
>
> Finally, Eric, your reference to Einstein is not very helpful
> to your case, and ludicrous, if you are implying that Doug
> Wilson is another Einstein. All of Einstein's work was tested
> in the open and free arena of science. (Will NSA scientists be
> doing that soon with regard to intelligent design?) What would
> you think of Einstein starting an institute of theoretical
> physics hiring his own family members and other unqualified
> faculty? He was hired at Princeton because of the fact that
> his great achievements were verified at the highest levels of
> coherent theory and empirical confirmation. Those who
> published for Canon Press have not passed any of these
> critical academic tests.
>
>
> Nick, in quoting Einstein I wasn't comparing Doug Wilson, or
> anyone else to Einstein. I think it is "ludicrous" of you to read
> that into it. I was simply utilizing the point of Einstein's
> words-- the quote could have been from Rosanne Barr, and I still
> would like the words. Einstein said "great minds" have always
> encountered opposition. Doug Wilson is no Einstein, but he is a
> great mind. I have heard thousands of preachers, and thousands of
> speakers, and regardless of whether one agrees with him or not, he
> is a great mind. You, Nick, are a great mind, and when you
> encounter opposition it is because you put things out there that
> are profound-- and you ought to be paid attention to. As should
> all great minds. That was my only point.
>
> It seems to me, though, that in your criticisms of Canon Press,
> NSA, etc. that you are insisting that they jump through all sorts
> of officially sanctioned hoops before they can enjoy freedom of
> speech. It seems like you want to say that anyone who wants to
> start a publishing company should have to go cap-in-hand to some
> overseeing body that will make sure that what they are going to
> print, teach, propagate fits with its worldview-- and if their
> thoughts are okay with the thought police, then they can enjoy
> "freedom" of speech.
>
> It looks to me like you are pushing your "religious" principles on
> others. Which further supports my belief that neutrality is a myth.
>
> You stated that "an academic institution is... about learning in a
> open and free atmosphere free of religious and political
> ideology." I don't believe there is such a place. I believe that
> people who believe in such a place are as duped as you think NSA
> students are. If people want to pursue an education in a place
> that shares their worldview, isn't that what this country stands for?
>
> Thanks for your time,
>
> Eric E.
>
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P-<br>
And likewise, I am free to speak of Wilson's Neo-Confederate agenda and
his plans for subverting the rights of women, gays and anyone who does
not share his exact belief system.<br>
BL<br>
<br>
Pat Kraut wrote:<br>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid005101c4429b$45649400$5e0bfea9@dell">
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">And, until the day that Wilson or
some of his church pick up guns and say we all have to believe exactly
as they do they are free to do and say what they will. Its not 'Fire'
in a crowded theatre. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">PK</font></div>
<blockquote
style="border-left: 2px solid rgb(0, 0, 0); padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 5px; margin-left: 5px; margin-right: 0px;">
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div
style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228) none repeat scroll 0%; -moz-background-clip: initial; -moz-background-inline-policy: initial; -moz-background-origin: initial; font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="eric@eric-e.com" href="mailto:eric@eric-e.com">Eric
Engerbretson</a> </div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="vision2020@moscow.com" href="mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</a>
</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:28 AM</div>
<div
style="font-family: arial; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size-adjust: none;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Vision2020] Nick Gier; Response to Eric E.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
Hi, Nick,<br>
<br>
Sorry for taking so long to respond, but the last week was one of the
busiest ten days of my life.<br>
<br>
You, of course, made some great points that may be irrefutable (at
least by me). But I'd like to mention a couple<br>
of things.<br>
<br>
On May 19, 2004, at 12:36 PM, Nick Gier wrote:<br>
<br>
<blockquote>The board and faculty of NSA have a clear choice. It
can follow time honored procedures of academic collegiality (read:
don't diss the UI) and academic standards (read: fewer Canon Press
publications and more PhDs). <br>
</blockquote>
Or not. And the question is: are they <i>free</i> to choose "not", or
not? And <i>who</i> has the right to insist that they do? Would that
right not be reserved for those paying for the education? What if those
paying for the education are completely satisfied with the product they
are receiving for their dollars, and they don't really care about the
"accredidation" of that product?<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Eric, you are right when you say that by hiring "his
own entire family" brings "more power to him," but an academic
institution is not about personal power; rather, it's about learning in
a open and free atmosphere free of religious and political ideology. I
am stunned that you think it is OK for Wilson to hire his own family.<br>
</blockquote>
Nick, I believe the question here is about freedom, in a country with
the right of free speech--the right of a person to start a private
business and run it however he wishes. Moscow Auto is a great auto
repair facility. But there is definitely some nepotism going on there.
A father has hired his sons. Now it would be silly for someone to have
a problem with that, <i>because it is a private institution with a
very specific purpose.</i><br>
<br>
It would be silly to mock NSA because it doesn't have a forestry
department. It would be silly to mock MIT because it focuses too
heavily on certain things and doesn't offer a broad enough education.
Your arguments about accredidation would be fine if NSA were receiving
public funding. But it is a privately funded organization, and
therefore it is free to do whatever it wishes, outside of crime. If NSA
decides to make policy to hire <i>only </i>instructors from the
Atwood family tree, then it is free to do so. The question is: are the
people paying for the education happy with what they are getting? Now,
if every year the graduates were raving about how they got duped and
ripped off by unqualified instructors who didn't know what they were
teaching-- then the Better Business Bureau ought to get involved and
find applicable laws about false advertising, etc. But if NSA is
cranking out happy customers who seem to be better educated <i>in the
specialties that they signed up for</i> than the average college
student, then shouldn't we leave them alone, and be glad for the
freedoms this country stands for? Again, Mr. Wilson's quote seems
applicable-- "We love diversity until we actually get some." Shouldn't
we be glad for diversity in education? Shouldn't we be glad there are
specialty schools that meet people's needs? Isn't it silly to compare
small specialty colleges to large universities?<br>
<br>
Now, if there has been actual deception involved with accredidation,
then, of course, that is wrong, and you should call them on the carpet
for it. But as for the nepotism charge-- you are "stunned that I think
it is OK to hire family". <i>I'm stunned</i> <i>that you think it's
not!</i> I thought this country was about freedom! If some Joe wants to
stand up on a cracker box and call it a college, isn't he free to do
so? ...as long as he does it with his own money? Under this system of
freedom, isn't it supposed to be the cake that is judged and not the
frosting? If you think NSA is a Joe on a cracker box, then mock away,
but when NSA outputs students that score better on tests than kids from
your own school, then you ought to think twice before mocking. That has
been my main point all along. And <i>of course</i> NSA isn't going to
give students a <i>completely</i> comprehensive education. It never
intended to. It is a specialty school. And a <i>completely </i>comprehensive
education is impossible at any university.<br>
<br>
<blockquote>Finally, Eric, your reference to Einstein is not very
helpful to your case, and ludicrous, if you are implying that Doug
Wilson is another Einstein. All of Einstein's work was tested in the
open and free arena of science. (Will NSA scientists be doing that soon
with regard to intelligent design?) What would you think of Einstein
starting an institute of theoretical physics hiring his own family
members and other unqualified faculty? He was hired at Princeton
because of the fact that his great achievements were verified at the
highest levels of coherent theory and empirical confirmation. Those who
published for Canon Press have not passed any of these critical
academic tests.<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Nick, in quoting Einstein I wasn't comparing Doug Wilson, or anyone
else to Einstein. I think it is "ludicrous" of you to read that into
it. I was simply utilizing <i>the point</i> of Einstein's words-- the
quote could have been from Rosanne Barr, and I still would like the
words. Einstein said "great minds" have always encountered opposition.
Doug Wilson is no Einstein, but he is a great mind. I have heard
thousands of preachers, and thousands of speakers, and regardless of
whether one agrees with him or not, he is a great mind. You, Nick, are
a great mind, and when you encounter opposition it is because you put
things out there that are profound-- and you ought to be paid attention
to. As should all great minds. That was my only point.<br>
<br>
It seems to me, though, that in your criticisms of Canon Press, NSA,
etc. that you are insisting that they jump through all sorts of
officially sanctioned hoops before they can enjoy freedom of speech. It
seems like you want to say that anyone who wants to start a publishing
company should have to go cap-in-hand to some overseeing body that will
make sure that what they are going to print, teach, propagate fits with
its worldview-- and if their thoughts are okay with the thought police,
then they can enjoy "freedom" of speech. <br>
<br>
It looks to me like you are pushing your "religious" principles on
others. Which further supports my belief that neutrality is a myth. <br>
<br>
You stated that "an academic institution is... about learning in a open
and free atmosphere <i>free of religious and political ideology</i>."
I don't believe there is such a place. I believe that people who
believe in such a place are as duped as you think NSA students are. If
people want to pursue an education in a place that shares their
worldview, isn't that what this country stands for?<br>
<br>
Thanks for your time,<br>
<br>
Eric E.<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</blockquote>
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