[Vision2020] Nick Gier; Response to Eric E.
Pat Kraut
pkraut@moscow.com
Tue, 25 May 2004 14:00:11 -0700
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And, until the day that Wilson or some of his church pick up guns and =
say we all have to believe exactly as they do they are free to do and =
say what they will. Its not 'Fire' in a crowded theatre.=20
PK
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Eric Engerbretson=20
To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 2004 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Nick Gier; Response to Eric E.
Hi, Nick,
Sorry for taking so long to respond, but the last week was one of the =
busiest ten days of my life.
You, of course, made some great points that may be irrefutable (at =
least by me). But I'd like to mention a couple
of things.
On May 19, 2004, at 12:36 PM, Nick Gier wrote:
The board and faculty of NSA have a clear choice. It can follow time =
honored procedures of academic collegiality (read: don't diss the UI) =
and academic standards (read: fewer Canon Press publications and more =
PhDs).=20
Or not. And the question is: are they free to choose "not", or not? =
And who has the right to insist that they do? Would that right not be =
reserved for those paying for the education? What if those paying for =
the education are completely satisfied with the product they are =
receiving for their dollars, and they don't really care about the =
"accredidation" of that product?
Eric, you are right when you say that by hiring "his own entire =
family" brings "more power to him," but an academic institution is not =
about personal power; rather, it's about learning in a open and free =
atmosphere free of religious and political ideology. I am stunned that =
you think it is OK for Wilson to hire his own family.
Nick, I believe the question here is about freedom, in a country with =
the right of free speech--the right of a person to start a private =
business and run it however he wishes. Moscow Auto is a great auto =
repair facility. But there is definitely some nepotism going on there. A =
father has hired his sons. Now it would be silly for someone to have a =
problem with that, because it is a private institution with a very =
specific purpose.
It would be silly to mock NSA because it doesn't have a forestry =
department. It would be silly to mock MIT because it focuses too heavily =
on certain things and doesn't offer a broad enough education. Your =
arguments about accredidation would be fine if NSA were receiving public =
funding. But it is a privately funded organization, and therefore it is =
free to do whatever it wishes, outside of crime. If NSA decides to make =
policy to hire only instructors from the Atwood family tree, then it is =
free to do so. The question is: are the people paying for the education =
happy with what they are getting? Now, if every year the graduates were =
raving about how they got duped and ripped off by unqualified =
instructors who didn't know what they were teaching-- then the Better =
Business Bureau ought to get involved and find applicable laws about =
false advertising, etc. But if NSA is cranking out happy customers who =
seem to be better educated in the specialties that they signed up for =
than the average college student, then shouldn't we leave them alone, =
and be glad for the freedoms this country stands for? Again, Mr. =
Wilson's quote seems applicable-- "We love diversity until we actually =
get some." Shouldn't we be glad for diversity in education? Shouldn't we =
be glad there are specialty schools that meet people's needs? Isn't it =
silly to compare small specialty colleges to large universities?
Now, if there has been actual deception involved with accredidation, =
then, of course, that is wrong, and you should call them on the carpet =
for it. But as for the nepotism charge-- you are "stunned that I think =
it is OK to hire family". I'm stunned that you think it's not! I thought =
this country was about freedom! If some Joe wants to stand up on a =
cracker box and call it a college, isn't he free to do so? ...as long as =
he does it with his own money? Under this system of freedom, isn't it =
supposed to be the cake that is judged and not the frosting? If you =
think NSA is a Joe on a cracker box, then mock away, but when NSA =
outputs students that score better on tests than kids from your own =
school, then you ought to think twice before mocking. That has been my =
main point all along. And of course NSA isn't going to give students a =
completely comprehensive education. It never intended to. It is a =
specialty school. And a completely comprehensive education is impossible =
at any university.
Finally, Eric, your reference to Einstein is not very helpful to =
your case, and ludicrous, if you are implying that Doug Wilson is =
another Einstein. All of Einstein's work was tested in the open and free =
arena of science. (Will NSA scientists be doing that soon with regard to =
intelligent design?) What would you think of Einstein starting an =
institute of theoretical physics hiring his own family members and other =
unqualified faculty? He was hired at Princeton because of the fact that =
his great achievements were verified at the highest levels of coherent =
theory and empirical confirmation. Those who published for Canon Press =
have not passed any of these critical academic tests.
Nick, in quoting Einstein I wasn't comparing Doug Wilson, or anyone =
else to Einstein. I think it is "ludicrous" of you to read that into it. =
I was simply utilizing the point of Einstein's words-- the quote could =
have been from Rosanne Barr, and I still would like the words. Einstein =
said "great minds" have always encountered opposition. Doug Wilson is no =
Einstein, but he is a great mind. I have heard thousands of preachers, =
and thousands of speakers, and regardless of whether one agrees with him =
or not, he is a great mind. You, Nick, are a great mind, and when you =
encounter opposition it is because you put things out there that are =
profound-- and you ought to be paid attention to. As should all great =
minds. That was my only point.
It seems to me, though, that in your criticisms of Canon Press, NSA, =
etc. that you are insisting that they jump through all sorts of =
officially sanctioned hoops before they can enjoy freedom of speech. It =
seems like you want to say that anyone who wants to start a publishing =
company should have to go cap-in-hand to some overseeing body that will =
make sure that what they are going to print, teach, propagate fits with =
its worldview-- and if their thoughts are okay with the thought police, =
then they can enjoy "freedom" of speech.=20
It looks to me like you are pushing your "religious" principles on =
others. Which further supports my belief that neutrality is a myth.=20
You stated that "an academic institution is... about learning in a =
open and free atmosphere free of religious and political ideology." I =
don't believe there is such a place. I believe that people who believe =
in such a place are as duped as you think NSA students are. If people =
want to pursue an education in a place that shares their worldview, =
isn't that what this country stands for?
Thanks for your time,
Eric E.
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And, until the day that Wilson or some =
of his=20
church pick up guns and say we all have to believe exactly as they do =
they are=20
free to do and say what they will. Its not 'Fire' in a crowded theatre.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>PK</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Deric@eric-e.com href=3D"mailto:eric@eric-e.com">Eric =
Engerbretson</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 25, 2004 =
11:28=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Nick =
Gier;=20
Response to Eric E.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>Hi, Nick,<BR><BR>Sorry for taking so long to respond, =
but the=20
last week was one of the busiest ten days of my life.<BR><BR>You, of =
course,=20
made some great points that may be irrefutable (at least by me). But =
I'd like=20
to mention a couple<BR>of things.<BR><BR>On May 19, 2004, at 12:36 PM, =
Nick=20
Gier wrote:<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>The board and faculty of NSA have a clear choice. It can =
follow=20
time honored procedures of academic collegiality (read: don't diss =
the UI)=20
and academic standards (read: fewer Canon Press publications and =
more PhDs).=20
<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>Or not. And the question is: are they <I>free</I> =
to choose=20
"not", or not? And <I>who</I> has the right to insist that they do? =
Would that=20
right not be reserved for those paying for the education? What if =
those paying=20
for the education are completely satisfied with the product they are =
receiving=20
for their dollars, and they don't really care about the =
"accredidation" of=20
that product?<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Eric, you are right when you say that by hiring "his own =
entire=20
family" brings "more power to him," but an academic institution is =
not about=20
personal power; rather, it's about learning in a open and free =
atmosphere=20
free of religious and political ideology. I am stunned that you =
think it is=20
OK for Wilson to hire his own family.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE>Nick, I =
believe the=20
question here is about freedom, in a country with the right of free=20
speech--the right of a person to start a private business and run it =
however=20
he wishes. Moscow Auto is a great auto repair facility. But there is=20
definitely some nepotism going on there. A father has hired his sons. =
Now it=20
would be silly for someone to have a problem with that, <I>because it =
is a=20
private institution with a very specific purpose.</I><BR><BR>It would =
be silly=20
to mock NSA because it doesn't have a forestry department. It would be =
silly=20
to mock MIT because it focuses too heavily on certain things and =
doesn't offer=20
a broad enough education. Your arguments about accredidation would be =
fine if=20
NSA were receiving public funding. But it is a privately funded =
organization,=20
and therefore it is free to do whatever it wishes, outside of crime. =
If NSA=20
decides to make policy to hire <I>only </I>instructors from the Atwood =
family=20
tree, then it is free to do so. The question is: are the people paying =
for the=20
education happy with what they are getting? Now, if every year the =
graduates=20
were raving about how they got duped and ripped off by unqualified =
instructors=20
who didn't know what they were teaching-- then the Better Business =
Bureau=20
ought to get involved and find applicable laws about false =
advertising, etc.=20
But if NSA is cranking out happy customers who seem to be better =
educated=20
<I>in the specialties that they signed up for</I> than the average =
college=20
student, then shouldn't we leave them alone, and be glad for the =
freedoms this=20
country stands for? Again, Mr. Wilson's quote seems applicable-- "We =
love=20
diversity until we actually get some." Shouldn't we be glad for =
diversity in=20
education? Shouldn't we be glad there are specialty schools that meet =
people's=20
needs? Isn't it silly to compare small specialty colleges to large=20
universities?<BR><BR>Now, if there has been actual deception involved =
with=20
accredidation, then, of course, that is wrong, and you should call =
them on the=20
carpet for it. But as for the nepotism charge-- you are "stunned that =
I think=20
it is OK to hire family". <I>I'm stunned</I> <I>that you think it's =
not!</I> I=20
thought this country was about freedom! If some Joe wants to stand up =
on a=20
cracker box and call it a college, isn't he free to do so? ...as long =
as he=20
does it with his own money? Under this system of freedom, isn't it =
supposed to=20
be the cake that is judged and not the frosting? If you think NSA is a =
Joe on=20
a cracker box, then mock away, but when NSA outputs students that =
score better=20
on tests than kids from your own school, then you ought to think twice =
before=20
mocking. That has been my main point all along. And <I>of course</I> =
NSA isn't=20
going to give students a <I>completely</I> comprehensive education. It =
never=20
intended to. It is a specialty school. And a <I>completely =
</I>comprehensive=20
education is impossible at any university.<BR><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE>Finally, Eric, your reference to Einstein is not very =
helpful to=20
your case, and ludicrous, if you are implying that Doug Wilson is =
another=20
Einstein. All of Einstein's work was tested in the open and free =
arena of=20
science. (Will NSA scientists be doing that soon with regard to =
intelligent=20
design?) What would you think of Einstein starting an institute of=20
theoretical physics hiring his own family members and other =
unqualified=20
faculty? He was hired at Princeton because of the fact that his =
great=20
achievements were verified at the highest levels of coherent theory =
and=20
empirical confirmation. Those who published for Canon Press have not =
passed=20
any of these critical academic tests.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Nick, in =
quoting=20
Einstein I wasn't comparing Doug Wilson, or anyone else to Einstein. I =
think=20
it is "ludicrous" of you to read that into it. I was simply utilizing =
<I>the=20
point</I> of Einstein's words-- the quote could have been from Rosanne =
Barr,=20
and I still would like the words. Einstein said "great minds" have =
always=20
encountered opposition. Doug Wilson is no Einstein, but he is a great =
mind. I=20
have heard thousands of preachers, and thousands of speakers, and =
regardless=20
of whether one agrees with him or not, he is a great mind. You, Nick, =
are a=20
great mind, and when you encounter opposition it is because you put =
things out=20
there that are profound-- and you ought to be paid attention to. As =
should all=20
great minds. That was my only point.<BR><BR>It seems to me, though, =
that in=20
your criticisms of Canon Press, NSA, etc. that you are insisting that =
they=20
jump through all sorts of officially sanctioned hoops before they can =
enjoy=20
freedom of speech. It seems like you want to say that anyone who wants =
to=20
start a publishing company should have to go cap-in-hand to some =
overseeing=20
body that will make sure that what they are going to print, teach, =
propagate=20
fits with its worldview-- and if their thoughts are okay with the =
thought=20
police, then they can enjoy "freedom" of speech. <BR><BR>It looks to =
me like=20
you are pushing your "religious" principles on others. Which further =
supports=20
my belief that neutrality is a myth. <BR><BR>You stated that "an =
academic=20
institution is... about learning in a open and free atmosphere <I>free =
of=20
religious and political ideology</I>." I don't believe there is such a =
place.=20
I believe that people who believe in such a place are as duped as you =
think=20
NSA students are. If people want to pursue an education in a place =
that shares=20
their worldview, isn't that what this country stands =
for?<BR><BR>Thanks for=20
your time,<BR><BR>Eric E.<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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