[Vision2020] Re: NSA student scores, Mr. Gier

[Eric Engerbretson]

--Apple-Mail-4--845887478
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=ISO-8859-1;
	format=flowed


On May 14, 2004, at 4:00 PM, Tbertruss@aol.com wrote:

>
>  When I find evidence that some NSA students are showing independence=20=

> of thought enough to challenge the prevailing thinking at NSA=20
> regarding women's or gay rights, to pick two salient issues, I will=20
> acknowledge the education being promoted there is worthy of the term=20=

> "higher education."=A0 In the meantime, I don''t care how high the =
test=20
> scores are or how many doctorates pad down the halls.=A0 Open minded=20=

> inquiry where all arguments and viewpoints well presented receive a=20
> fair hearing is not necessarily dependent on test scores or IQs or=20
> PhDs.
>
>  Are there any NSA students receiving academic awards for well=20
> reasoned arguments promoting gay rights or feminism, even from a=20
> Christian Biblical orientation?=A0 Such arguments do exist in the =
world=20
> of Christian scholarship.
>
>  Evidence of this would perhaps persuade me to regard NSA as more than=20=

> an institution of high brow religious propaganda.
>
>  Are the students filtered out before they are accepted into NSA to=20
> assure a certain conformity of viewpoint?=A0 And does not this=20
> limitation of diversity (oh dear, not that word again!) impact the=20
> capability for NSA to provide an education about the whole world as=20
> people really live it, Christian and Jew, Muslim and Hindu, Buddhist,=20=

> atheist and agnostic?
>
>  Prove me wrong!
>
>  Ted Moffet

Ted, you won't find NSA students promoting gay rights or your=20
understanding of "women's rights" because what they are selling is a=20
Christian education based on a specific (although worldwide and=20
scholarly) interpretation of the Bible. It is a religious education.=20
But to then say that therefore it is not a "higher education" but a=20
lower form of education is simply you putting your religious dogma and=20=

propaganda on them.  You would be the first to say that people should=20
never impose their religious dogma on others-- but those words can't=20
pass your lips without you doing the same thing as you speak.  So your=20=

"neutral" schools that are preaching a certain religious idea of=20
sexuality and a certain religious idea of maleness and femaleness, are=20=

just as religious as NSA-- it's just a religion based on the myth of=20
neutrality.  It is time to wake up and realize that everyone has a=20
worldview, and even the worldview that all worldviews are equally valid=20=

is a worldview! We're all religious, aware of it or not!

Everyone will go to the school that is closest to the religion that=20
makes them feel comfortable, whether that is Berkely, MIT or Bob Jones.=20=

But if you want to measure schools for quality, you have to use=20
objective standards!  You can't hand out the trophies at a college=20
track meet based on runner's opinions on sexuality. You use a=20
stopwatch. Same with judging a college.  You test them on the three=20
"R's" and the specifications of their major.  But puhleez stop=20
pretending that modern humanism isn't religious.

Of course, NSA isn't providing a balanced education. That is because=20
there is no college on earth that does. Every faculty has leanings and=20=

every curricula has biases.  Do you really think that the NSA students=20=

haven't heard most of the "arguments and viewpoints" that a "balanced=20
education" would give them?  Those "arguments and viewpoints" are the=20
very reason they picked NSA. It is because they understand those things=20=

that they chose a school that agrees with the choices they have made.

I met a U of I student in March who was going to graduate this spring=20
who was bragging to me that he had never read a whole book, and didn't=20=

intend to.  He said he hated reading, and a person nowadays could be an=20=

educated person simply by going to college and watching TV. He said it=20=

was actually his goal to finish his bachelor's degree without having to=20=

read a whole book, and he knew he would succeed, and, boy, was he=20
modern and proud.  Somehow I would be inclined to trust the "breadth"=20
of education of an NSA student more than that of this fellow.

The people who are really getting suckered by snake oil salesmen are=20
the folks who think they are getting a balanced education.  So go ahead=20=

and mock the NSAers all you want. They really don't care-- they're too=20=

busy reading.

Cordially,

Eric E.



--Apple-Mail-4--845887478
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/enriched;
	charset=ISO-8859-1



On May 14, 2004, at 4:00 PM, Tbertruss@aol.com wrote:


<excerpt>

<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller> When I find evidence that
some NSA students are showing independence of thought enough to
challenge the prevailing thinking at NSA regarding women's or gay
rights, to pick two salient issues, I will acknowledge the education
being promoted there is worthy of the term "higher education."=A0 In the
meantime, I don''t care how high the test scores are or how many
doctorates pad down the halls.=A0 Open minded inquiry where all
arguments and viewpoints well presented receive a fair hearing is not
necessarily dependent on test scores or IQs or =
PhDs.</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller> Are there any NSA students
receiving academic awards for well reasoned arguments promoting gay
rights or feminism, even from a Christian Biblical orientation?=A0 Such
arguments do exist in the world of Christian =
scholarship.</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller> Evidence of this would
perhaps persuade me to regard NSA as more than an institution of high
brow religious propaganda.</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller> Are the students filtered
out before they are accepted into NSA to assure a certain conformity
of viewpoint?=A0 And does not this limitation of diversity (oh dear, not
that word again!) impact the capability for NSA to provide an
education about the whole world as people really live it, Christian
and Jew, Muslim and Hindu, Buddhist, atheist and =
agnostic?</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller> Prove me =
wrong!</smaller></fontfamily>


<fontfamily><param>Arial</param><smaller> Ted Moffet

</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>

Ted, you won't find NSA students promoting gay rights or your
understanding of "women's rights" because what they are selling is a
Christian education based on a specific (although worldwide and
scholarly) interpretation of the Bible. It is a
<italic>religious</italic> education. But to then say that therefore
it is not a "higher education" but a lower form of education is simply
you putting <italic>your</italic> religious dogma and propaganda on
<italic>them. </italic> You would be the first to say that people
should never impose their religious dogma on others-- but those words
can't pass your lips without you doing the same thing as you speak.=20
So your "neutral" schools that are preaching a certain religious idea
of sexuality and a certain religious idea of maleness and femaleness,
are just as religious as NSA-- it's just a religion based on the myth
of neutrality.  It is time to wake up and realize that everyone has a
worldview, and even the worldview that all worldviews are equally
valid is a worldview! We're all religious, aware of it or not!


Everyone will go to the school that is closest to the religion that
makes them feel comfortable, whether that is Berkely, MIT or Bob
Jones. But if you want to <italic>measure</italic> schools for
<italic>quality</italic>, you have to use objective standards!  You
can't hand out the trophies at a college track meet based on runner's
opinions on sexuality. You use a stopwatch. Same with judging a
college.  You test them on the three "R's" and the specifications of
their major.  But puhleez stop pretending that modern humanism isn't
religious.


<italic>Of course</italic>, NSA isn't providing a balanced education.
That is because there is no college on earth that does. Every faculty
has leanings and every curricula has biases.  Do you really think that
the NSA students haven't heard most of the "arguments and viewpoints"
that a "balanced education" would give them?  Those "arguments and
viewpoints" are the very <italic>reason</italic> they picked NSA. It
is <italic>because</italic> they understand those things that they
chose a school that agrees with the choices they have made. =20


I met a U of I student in March who was going to graduate this spring
who was bragging to me that he had never read a whole book, and didn't
intend to.  He said he hated reading, and a person nowadays could be
an educated person simply by going to college and watching TV. He said
it was actually his goal to finish his bachelor's degree without
having to read a whole book, and he knew he would succeed, and, boy,
was he modern and proud.  Somehow I would be inclined to trust the
"breadth" of education of an NSA student more than that of this
fellow.=20


The people who are <italic>really</italic> getting suckered by snake
oil salesmen are the folks who think they <italic>are </italic>getting
a balanced education.  So go ahead and mock the NSAers all you want.
They really don't care-- they're too busy reading.


Cordially,


Eric E.




--Apple-Mail-4--845887478--