[Vision2020] Is this Fair???
thansen@moscow.com
thansen@moscow.com
Tue, 11 May 2004 21:53:30 GMT
I was going to take the time to discuss each of Mr. Arnold's responses. But,
then I said "Why?"
Tom Hansen
SFC, US Army (Retired)
> Mr. Hansen,
>
> I really do wish you would at minimum give me the dignity of reading what I
> said before commenting on it. I in no way used the term "enlisted" or
> "officers". Everyone in the military is a "soldier first", which is the term
> I coined.
>
> First, the military has already punished 6 soldiers, they gave them a
> reprimand. Gee, a reprimand. That will like be on their record, OMG, that
> will show them we are serious.
>
> Second, I don't buy the notion that this is a lack of "Leadership" or
> "Training" or "Experience". You don't need training, leadership, or
> experience to know that shoving a light stick up someone's rectum is WRONG.
> I have had zero military training, leadership, and experience, and I along
> with the remaining 6 billion human inhabitants on the planet know this
> action is wrong.
>
> Third, those that are suppose to supervise these men and women are also
> guilty of negligence for not supervising and/or not taking action to stop
> this behavior. If the CIA or some other US entity ordered them to do this,
> then the soldiers ordered to do so should report it higher authorities, and
> if necessary, the media or their families to report it.
>
> Finally, it is not an excuse to say, "I was only following orders". This is
> the same garbage said by the Guards at the Nazi Concentration Camps. I don't
> buy it. We all have free will. Committing terrible acts of violence against
> prisoners only puts the very people you are suppose to be defending at risk.
> Right now at this moment we have newly revitalized enemies of the US
> scouring the Iraqi countryside looking for US Citizens to torture and kill
> in retaliation for these horrible actions.
>
> The people that are ultimately responsible for the torture of these
> individuals are the very ones that committed them. There is no, if, ands, or
> buts about it. Those that committed these atrocities clearly knew this was
> wrong, did it anyway, and thus should pay for their injustices. PERIOD.
>
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
>
> >From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>
> >Reply-To: <thansen@moscow.com>
> >To: "Donovan Arnold" <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>, <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Is this Fair???
> >Date: Tue, 11 May 2004 06:06:57 -0700
> >
> >HUH???
> >
> >WHAT???
> >
> >Hello. Hello. Earth to Donovan Arnold. Come in Mr. Arnold.
> >
> >My guess (that is based on considerably more than whatever Mr. Arnold is
> >basing his comments on) is that this prison was being staffed by troops
> >that
> >were inexperienced and insufficiently trained and was being supervised by a
> >corrupt chain of command.
> >
> >To blame everything on the lower enlisted end of the spectrum is ignorant
> >at
> >best. Let the military conduct their preliminary investigaitons and
> >proceed
> >with their courts-martial. I am certain that those soldiers revealed in
> >the
> >photographs will be harshly dealt with. I just hope that the ripples of
> >this judicial tidal wave reach as far as field grade and general grade
> >officers.
> >
> >Two non-commissioned officers (who were assigned to this prisoner camp and
> >not under charges) were interviewed by Matt Lauer on The Today Show
> >yesterday morning. These NCOs stated that the general feeling among the
> >cadre was "the ends justifies the means".
> >
> >Yes. The lower enlisted were seriously wrong in believing in, and
> >applying,
> >that concept when interrogating Iraqi prisoners. But, more seriously, the
> >chain of command was wrong in letting it prevail.
> >
> >And one last item, Mr. Arnold. During my 20 years of service, I do not
> >recall seeing one boy or girl. What I saw were men and women in uniform
> >serving their country.
> >
> >Just some thoughts from an old soldier.
> >
> >Take care,
> >
> >Tom Hansen
> >SFC, U.S. Army (Retired)
> >
> >"Patriotism is not a short and frenzied outburst of emotion but the
> >tranquil
> >and steady dedication of a lifetime." --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> > > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> > > Sent: Monday, May 10, 2004 10:27 PM
> > > To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > Subject: [Vision2020] Is this Fair???
> > >
> > >
> > > I was thinking about what would be the fair and decent thing to
> > > do with the
> > > soldiers that tortured, humiliated, and sodomized those in the
> > > Iraqi Prison.
> > >
> > > What I would do is leave all those who knew about it and did nothing and
> > > those that participated in the illegal behavior right there in
> > > Iraq. I would
> > > let the newly formed Iraqi government put them on trial along
> > > with all the
> > > others that will be tried for crimes against humanity. Then, if and when
> > > they have been tried and served their sentences in Iraqi, they should be
> > > brought back to the US and tried in a Court Martial.
> > >
> > > It seems only fair. Think about it, if a foreign government was
> >occupying
> > > the United States, and this torture was done to US citizens on
> > > our own soil,
> > > would we not ask to be able to try those who committed such
> > > atrocities? Or
> > > would we accept the foreigners to punish them?
> > >
> > > This really is disgusting, sad, and humiliating. There are
> > > something like a
> > > 1000 photos and MPEGS of this torture, including people being
> > > sodomized by a
> > > light stick. My stomach turns, and I feel so sad and ashamed that our
> > > military, or anyone in it, and certainly not an entire unit, can
> > > participate
> > > in this, take photos, and have smiles on their face as they are
> > > doing it. I
> > > wonder if this is going on elsewhere in Iraq. What really are the
> >chances
> > > someone could take 1000 photos unless it was happening more frequently.
> > >
> > > I really hope that everyone on this server list prays that this sort of
> > > thing stops everywhere, and that justice can come to those that
> > > participated
> > > and are responsible for the inhumane treatment of these people.
> > >
> > > This is something that will hurt all US Soldiers. We violate the Geneva
> > > Convention, and others will violate it against our captured troops. Look
> > > forward to this happening to our boys and girls in the future.
> > >
> > > So I think we should just leave these people over there. They
> > > obviously feel
> > > quiet comfortable anyway.
> > >
> > > Respectfully,
> > >
> > > Donovan J Arnold
> > >
> > > PS, I do not think this reflects the core values of the average
> > > soldier. But
> > > I think we need to bring them home if this is what 19 years old pregnant
> > > Privates end up doing over there. Philip Zimbardo did this
> > > experiment many
> > > years ago. The good people did the same thing they are doing in Iraq.
> > >
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