Outside Southern Civil Rights Agitator Am I? RE: [Vision2020] Who's afraid of Elizabeth Fox-Genovese?

Sun, 21 Mar 2004 14:48:19 -0600

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My comment on Elizabeth Fox-Genovese is that she is an important
national figure in the larger conservative movement. Now this could be
debated, she more important, or less important than I assert
Fox-Genovese to be. However, debating the issue at hand, Fox-Genovese,
is not taken up by Joan Opyr, but character assassination.

For example, the following comment:

"I would remind you, however, that that is your particular bailiwick
(some might say obsession). "

"Obsession"? Whether I am obsessed or not isn't really the point. It is
how important Fox-Genovese is the topic. However, taking a personal
potshot seems to be the lead strength of the argument. Perhaps I can
look forward to an Edsplotch website. 

Then we have the Xenophobic comment:

"Some of us on this list actually live here.  In Moscow, Idaho.  We deal
with Doug Wilson day in and day out; many have been dealing with him for
decades."

Yes, you live there, Moscow, ID, and I live here, Dallas,TX. What does
that have to do with Fox-Genovese? Push comes to shove and you are
reduced to saying Ed is an outside agitator. Where have I heard that
type of reasoning before?

Then you have the comment:

"Doug's effect on this community has often been baleful and malign, but
we can handle him.  So thanks but no thanks, Ed, for your Texas-based
assist."

Again, we find out that I live in Texas, and not Moscow, ID. Outside
agitator am I. Of course, I feel that we live in a nation, and I am a
cosmopolitan, a citizen of the world, so this Xenophobia doesn't carry
much weight. However, what does this have to do with Fox-Genovese? 

Also, since when is Joan Oypr all of Moscow and Pullman? "We" or do you
mean Joan Opry and a few friends that are ticked at Ed Sebesta for
pointing out some really questionable tactics. 

Even if Joan Oypr represented all of Moscow, ID opinion, I can still
post my point of view if only to have it rejected. I don't think there
is a wall around Moscow, ID against outside ideas from outside
agitators. As Carlyle says, every new opinion starts out with the
minority of precisely one. 

Finally Joan Oypr gets to how important she thinks Fox-Genovese and
mentions some major figures of the 20th century. Well, I am not going to
assert that we will find marble statues of Fox-Genovese in the 22nd
century here and there. I am just pointing out that she is a major
figure. 

Joan Oypr also confuses the issues on whether Fox-Genovese is admirable
and whether Fox-Genovese is important. I think we understand that Oypr
doesn't think Fox-Genovese is good. However, that doesn't really bear on
the question, originally raised, that getting Fox-Genovese as a speaker
is a failure for Doug Wilson. Also, does it really matter whether
Fox-Genovese speaks for a fee or for free? 

I think there have been some very effective programs in Moscow, ID
against the Neo-Confederates. Uninformed snide potshots on Vision 2020
is not one of them. 

Ed Sebesta

-----Original Message-----
From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]
On Behalf Of Joan Opyr
Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:36 PM
To: Vision2020 Moscow
Subject: [Vision2020] Who's afraid of Elizabeth Fox-Genovese?

I'm sorry to take issue with you, Ed Sebesta, as you have frequently
provided a valuable service, re: information about the neo-Confederate
movement.  I would remind you, however, that that is your particular
bailiwick (some might say obsession).  Vision 2020 is a community forum
and as such it addresses more than one community concern.  Some of us on
this list actually live here.  In Moscow, Idaho.  We deal with Doug
Wilson day in and day out; many have been dealing with him for decades.
The fact that he has acquired a small national following mystifies most
of us, but it shouldn't.  As P. T. Barnum said more than a century ago,
there's a sucker born every minute.

Doug's effect on this community has often been baleful and malign, but
we can handle him.  So thanks but no thanks, Ed, for your Texas-based
assist.  Remember that garbage barge from New York that floated up and
down the East coast some years back, looking for a place to land?  Well,
we don't worry about that here.  We're confident that we can take out
our own trash.  

(Tom Hansen, in particular, deserves a hearty round of applause.  He was
one of the first to put on his rubber gloves and begin shoveling.  Tom's
"Not On The Palouse" web-site is a clearinghouse of invaluable
information, and I am not alone in being grateful to him for being
willing to create and maintain it, all on his own time and at his own
expense.  The fact that Tom also has an excellent wry sense of humor is
a complete bonus.)

I mean what I say, and I say what I mean.  Once again, very clearly, I
say that Elizabeth Fox-Genovese is not important.  Neither is Mona
Charon, Myrna Blyth, Laura Ingraham, Phyllis Schlafly, or any of the
other anti-feminist Stepford Sirens of the modern GOP's
kirke-kinder-kuchen movement.  I don't deny that the effects of their
"work," like Doug's, have wide and unpleasant ramifications, but they
themselves are not serious scholars, and they are not serious thinkers.
We cheapen our political discourse when we allow chattering parrots who
shriek out nonsense in thirty-second sound-bites to pass themselves off
as thoughtful cultural critics.  The fact that Fox-Genovese is a big
muckety-muck among the kinds of jackasses who paint Confederate flags on
the hoods of their trucks does not make her important, and I will not
accord her the same respected status that I would Hannah Arendt, Emma
Goldman, or Soren Kiekegaard.  I think she's wicked.  I think she's bad.
But I laugh at her poor-thinking, her self-promotion, and her miserable
pretensions.  This, in my opinion, isn't the only possible response, but
it is a perfectly acceptable one.

FYI, I read a bit of Elizabeth Fox when I was studying feminist theory
back in graduate school, sometime in the late Jurassic.  Her work at the
time was moderately interesting.  Long ago, however, she chose the path
of right-wing crumpet and reactionary gadfly over that of respectable
academic inquiry.  Why?  Who knows?  Perhaps because it pays better and
you get a lot more press.  The story of how she transmogrified from Ms.
Fox into Mrs. Fox-Genovese is probably interesting, but only if you're
Elizabeth Fox or Eugene Genovese.  

As for the rest of us, why don't we just extrapolate from the lyrics of
this great Madeleine Peyroux song? 

Was I?

Sweet young thing of sixteen

Thought I'd step out one night

I longed to get the thrill in life I missed

I met a youth, a bit uncouth,

Although he seemed alright,

I knew him by the moment when we kissed.

When I got home next day with a swollen head,

My girlfriend asked if I had fun I said,

Was I drunk?

Was he handsome?

And did Mama give me hell?

Did I get a thrill and am I full aquiver?

Was he rough?  Did I care?

Am I glad I fell?
Every time I think of him, do I shiver?

Was he high?  And was I?

And would he stand for me?

He would not.  Did I lie?

Does he still think I'm a baby?

If I was, am I still?

Do I care?  Don't be sill!

Was I drunk?  Was he handsome?

And did Mama give me Hell?

Was I drunk? Was he handsome?
Did Mama give me Hell?
With his hands loose there's no refusing.
Did he fight? Was I blue?
Almost shamed to tell,
And I don't know yet the system he was using.
Well, I said, "Stop, please behave."
Well, what's the use of raving?
He said, "Give," so I gave.
After all what was I saving?
Am I glad? Holy Gee,
If I had fun, you're asking me.
Was I drunk? Was he handsome?
And did Mama give me Hell?

(Music and lyrics by Charlie Farrell and Chick Endor.  Used here without
copyright permission as I think they're long deceased.)

Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment  

  _____  

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<DIV>My comment on =
Elizabeth=20
Fox-Genovese is that she is an important national figure in the larger=20
conservative movement. Now this could be debated, she more important, or =
less=20
important than I assert Fox-Genovese to be. However, debating the issue =
at hand,=20
Fox-Genovese, is not taken up by Joan Opyr, but character=20
assassination.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>For example, =
the=20
following comment:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"I would remind you, however, =
that&nbsp;that=20
is your&nbsp;particular bailiwick (some might=20
say&nbsp;obsession).&nbsp;"</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Obsession"? =
Whether I am=20
obsessed or not isn't really the point. It is how important Fox-Genovese =
is the=20
topic. However, taking a personal potshot seems to be the lead strength =
of the=20
argument. Perhaps I can look forward to an Edsplotch website.=20
</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Then we have =
the=20
Xenophobic comment:</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>"Some of us =
on this list=20
actually live here.&nbsp; In=20
<st1:place><st1:City>Moscow</st1:City>,=20
<st1:State>Idaho</st1:State></st1:place>.&nbsp;=20
We deal with Doug Wilson day in and day out; many have been =
dealing with=20
him for decades."</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Yes, you live there, Moscow, ID,&nbsp;and I live here,=20
Dallas,TX.&nbsp;What does that have to do with Fox-Genovese? Push comes =
to shove=20
and you are reduced to saying&nbsp;Ed is an&nbsp;outside agitator. Where =
have I=20
heard that type of reasoning before?</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Then you have the comment:</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>"Doug's effect on this community has often been baleful =
and malign,=20
but we can handle him.&nbsp; So =
thanks=20
but no thanks, Ed, for your Texas-based =
assist."</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Again, we find out that I live in Texas, and not Moscow, =
ID.=20
Outside agitator am I. Of course, I feel that we live in a nation, and I =
am a=20
cosmopolitan, a citizen of the world, so this Xenophobia doesn't carry =
much=20
weight. However, what does this have to do with Fox-Genovese?=20
</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Also, since when is Joan Oypr all of Moscow and Pullman? =
"We" or do=20
you mean Joan Opry and a few friends that are ticked at Ed Sebesta for =
pointing=20
out some really questionable tactics. </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Even if Joan Oypr represented all of Moscow, ID opinion, =
I can=20
still post my point of view if only to have it rejected. I don't think =
there is=20
a wall around Moscow, ID against outside ideas from outside agitators. =
As=20
Carlyle says, every new opinion starts out with the minority of =
precisely one.=20
</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Finally Joan Oypr gets to how important she thinks =
Fox-Genovese and=20
mentions some major figures of the 20th century. Well, I am not going to =
assert=20
that we will find marble statues of Fox-Genovese in the 22nd century =
here and=20
there. I am just pointing out that she is a major figure.=20
</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Joan Oypr also confuses the issues on whether =
Fox-Genovese is=20
admirable and whether&nbsp;Fox-Genovese is important. I think we =
understand that=20
Oypr doesn't think Fox-Genovese is good. However, that doesn't really =
bear on=20
the question, originally raised, that getting Fox-Genovese as a speaker =
is a=20
failure for Doug Wilson. Also, does it really matter whether =
Fox-Genovese speaks=20
for a fee or for free? </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>I think there have been some very effective programs in =
Moscow, ID=20
against the Neo-Confederates. Uninformed snide potshots on Vision 2020 =
is not=20
one of them. </DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>Ed Sebesta</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT=20
face=3Dverdana>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
 <DIV></DIV>
 <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
 face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message----- From:=20
 vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On =
Behalf=20
 Of Joan Opyr Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2004 1:36 =
PM To:=20
 Vision2020 Moscow Subject: [Vision2020] Who's afraid of =
Elizabeth=20
 Fox-Genovese? </DIV>
 <DIV>
 I'm sorry to take issue with you, Ed Sebesta, as you have =
frequently=20
 provided a valuable service, re: information about the neo-Confederate =

movement.&nbsp;&nbsp;I would remind you, however, that&nbsp;that is=20
 your&nbsp;particular bailiwick (some might=20
 say&nbsp;obsession).&nbsp;&nbsp;Vision 2020&nbsp;is a&nbsp;community=20
 forum&nbsp;and as such it addresses more than one community=20
 concern.&nbsp;&nbsp;Some of us on this list actually live here.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; In=20
 <st1:place><st1:City>Moscow</st1:City>,=20
 <st1:State>Idaho</st1:State></st1:place>.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; We deal with Doug Wilson day =
in and=20
 day out; many have been dealing with him for decades.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;The fact that he has =
acquired a=20
 small national following mystifies most of us, but it shouldn't.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; As P. T. Barnum&nbsp;said =
more than a=20
 century ago, there's a sucker born every minute.
 <FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>Doug's effect on this community has =
often been=20
 baleful and malign, but we can handle him.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; So thanks but no thanks, Ed, =
for your=20
 Texas-based assist.&nbsp; =
Remember that=20
 garbage barge from New York that floated up and down the East coast =
some years=20
 back, looking for a place to land?&nbsp;=20
 Well, we don't worry about that here.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; We're confident that we can =
take out=20
 our own trash.&nbsp; 
 &nbsp;
 (Tom Hansen,&nbsp;in particular, deserves a hearty round of=20
 applause.&nbsp; He was one of the first to put&nbsp;on his rubber =
gloves and=20
 begin shoveling.&nbsp;&nbsp;Tom's "Not On The Palouse" web-site is a=20
 clearinghouse of invaluable information, and I am not alone in being =
grateful=20
 to him for being willing to create and maintain it, all on his own =
time and at=20
 his own expense.&nbsp; The fact that Tom also has an excellent wry =
sense of=20
 humor is a complete bonus.)
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 I mean what I say, and I say what I mean.&nbsp; =
Once&nbsp;again, very=20
 clearly, I&nbsp;say that Elizabeth Fox-Genovese is =
not=20
 important.&nbsp; Neither is =
Mona=20
 Charon, Myrna Blyth, Laura Ingraham, Phyllis Schlafly, or any of the =
other=20
 anti-feminist Stepford Sirens of the modern GOP's kirke-kinder-kuchen=20
 movement.&nbsp; I don't deny =
that the=20
 effects of their "work," like Doug's, have wide and unpleasant =
ramifications,=20
 but they themselves are not serious scholars, and they are not serious =

thinkers.&nbsp; We cheapen =
our=20
 political discourse when we allow&nbsp;chattering parrots who shriek =
out=20
 nonsense in thirty-second sound-bites to pass themselves off as =
thoughtful=20
 cultural critics. &nbsp;The fact =
that=20
 Fox-Genovese is a big muckety-muck among the kinds of jackasses who =
paint=20
 Confederate flags on the hoods of their trucks does not make her =
important,=20
 and I will not&nbsp;accord&nbsp;her the same respected status =
that I=20
 would Hannah Arendt, Emma Goldman, or Soren Kiekegaard.&nbsp; I think =
she's=20
 wicked.&nbsp;&nbsp;I think she's bad.&nbsp; But&nbsp;I laugh at her=20
 poor-thinking, her self-promotion, and her miserable =
pretensions.&nbsp; This,=20
 in my opinion, isn't the only possible response, but it is a perfectly =

acceptable one.
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman">FYI, I read a bit of Elizabeth Fox when I was =
studying=20
 feminist theory back in graduate school, sometime in the late =
Jurassic.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; Her work at the time was =
moderately=20
 interesting.&nbsp; Long ago, =
however,=20
 she chose the path of right-wing crumpet and reactionary gadfly over =
that of=20
 respectable academic inquiry.&nbsp;=20
 Why?&nbsp; Who =
knows?<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; Perhaps because it pays =
better and you=20
 get a lot more press.&nbsp; =
The story=20
 of how she transmogrified from Ms. Fox into Mrs. Fox-Genovese is =
probably=20
 interesting, but only&nbsp;if you&#8217;re Elizabeth Fox or Eugene =
Genovese.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; 
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 As for the rest of us, why don't we just extrapolate from the =
lyrics of=20
 this great Madeleine Peyroux song? 
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 Was I?
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 Sweet young thing of sixteen
 Thought I'd step out one night
 I longed to get the thrill in life I missed
 I met a youth, a bit uncouth,
 Although he seemed alright,
 I knew him by the moment when we kissed.
 When I got home next day with a swollen head,
 My girlfriend asked if I had fun I said,
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 Was I drunk?
 Was he handsome?
 And did Mama give me hell?
 Did I get a thrill and am I full aquiver?
 Was he rough?&nbsp; =
Did I=20
 care?
 Am I glad I fell? Every time I think of him, do I =
shiver?
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 Was he high?&nbsp; =
And was=20
 I?
 And would he stand for me?
 He would not.&nbsp; =
Did I=20
 lie?
 Does he still think I'm a baby?
 If I was, am I still?
 Do I care?&nbsp; =
Don't be=20
 sill!
 Was I drunk?&nbsp; =
Was he=20
 handsome?
 And did Mama give me Hell?
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 Was I drunk? Was he handsome? Did Mama give me =
Hell? With his=20
 hands loose there's no refusing. Did he fight? Was I =
blue? Almost shamed=20
 to tell, And I don't know yet the system he was using. Well, I =
said,=20
 "Stop, please behave." Well, what's the use of raving? He said, =
"Give,"=20
 so I gave. After all what was I saving? Am I glad? Holy =
Gee, If I had=20
 fun, you're asking me. Was I drunk? Was he handsome? And did =
Mama give=20
 me Hell?
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 (Music and lyrics by Charlie Farrell and Chick Endor.<SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp; Used here without copyright =
permission=20
 as I think they&#8217;re long deceased.)
 <o:p><FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3>&nbsp;</o:p>
 <FONT=20
 face=3D"Times New Roman">Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment <SPAN=20
 style=3D"mso-spacerun: yes">&nbsp;</DIV> 
 <HR>
 Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : <A=20
 href=3D"http://explorer.msn.com">http://explorer.msn.com</A> 
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