[Spam] Re: [Spam] Re: [Spam] [Vision2020] Breaking News: Bush sending us to war (aga...

[matt@moscowland.com]

Wow, you do have a lot of time on your hands don't you.

I never said that thier were no U.S. citizens at the Alamo. That does not make it a U.S. Goverment sponsered "event". Aaron Burr tryed to succed Texas from the Union with a flotila of rafts, he had been the Vice President, that does not mean it was a goverment action. Although I do believe thats where Haliburton got started. And actually thats not the end of the story. The "white peolpe" jab was really not acurate now is it. I am trying to remember what the native toung of Mexico is........oh thats right Spanish.......no that can't be right. You nimrod Mexico was colonized by Spain. Actually colonized is not acurate Conqured is a better term. Santa Ana served the Queen of Spain so lets not get to far off base. After all we dont want to get in to the Spanish Inquisition.

I did notice that there were a lot English, Scotish, Irish, German, Welsh, Dannish and even Texan U.S. Citizens on your list. I am not sure how that works......... but anyway maybe those were the congressmen.

Now I am not trying to defend Bush by attacking Clinton nor am I saying you are a Clintonite, but Slick Willie sent over $300,000,000,000.00 in aid to Haiti and what did it get us. Heck he even sent 20,000 U.S. troops to Haiti. And please do not talk about the "balanced budget" we had during his administration either. You can not borrow from the 2012 budget today and say we have a surplus. Well I guess you can say it. The Democrats did. 

Again you get a gold Star. Custer was not a hero. I do feel Bigot is a little harsh though. That sentiment was a product of the time. I do not excuse or support it, but it was wide spread and born out of fear and misunderstaning.
I would more acuratly discribe him as an undisiplined, reckless, selfimportant individual that benifited from the couragous actions of a few. He was in the right place at the right time during the Civil war.
Please remeber that I agreed with you that that period of our history was and is deporable.

President Eisenhower did not pull us out because it was not worth fighting. What are they teaching these days? Trumen fired McCarther when he (against orders) crossed the 38th with the misconception that we could drive the commies all the way off the Korean Pen. Thats when China got involved and pushed us way back. Once we had fought all the way back to the 38th an armisist was signed and active warfar was halted. We are still in Korea and its still an active "war zone". Na by the way more than 33,000 americans dies in that war aganst aggression
 
A quick history lesson. WWI was not fought over territorial disputs. When the Archduke Franz Ferdinand was assinated while visiting Sarajevo, the capital of Bosnia. Once the Serbian goverment had arrested the responsible parties, the Austro-Hungarian goverment demanded that they be turned over to stand trial in Vienna. Nikola Pasic, the prime minister of Serbia, told the Austro-Hungarian government that he was unable to hand over these three men as it "would be a violation of Serbia's Constitution and criminal in law". Three days later Austro-Hungarian declared war on Serbia. You see it was not over territory it was over sovranty. You see the inhabitants of the area were tired of being ruled by the Austro-Hungarians' and favored a union with Serbia. Now that seams strange Bosnians and Serbs wanting a union between them. Look at them now........
Obviosly I left many things out (limmited space and time) but I remind you that you did not feel WWI was a "moral war". Yet you cited WWII as a "moral war", really its a little subjective. The morality of the situation depends on what side you are on and your point of view.

I know what to say about your paragraph on WWI and WWII I just dont understand what you have been taught. Japan never tryed to take over the U.S. they only wanted to be the dominate power in the Pacific. The only reason to attack Pearl was to make sure we could not do anything about thier conquest in the western Pacific. Its quite clear that they never had any intention to invade, attack, or control the U.S. mainland. No we did not just "help out our ally Britan". We fought and won the war in Europe because our primary interest as a nation were threatened, our national coinscience dictated that we not allow Germany to control the European contanent. We kicked Japans ass because the made us. (it goes deeper but I am tired)

War is not about profit (not really anymore), that ended centuries ago. Well decades anyway. War is evil, dont kid yourself. Only a very few wars were started by the good guys. Almoat always you will find an evil dictator or al least a made scientist behind it all. One day we will have peace on earth, but it will not come until its forced. Humans are bound by human nature (go figure), we will only change when required and we will only come together when an outside force pushes us together. It will probebly take an alien invasion or at least mass encounter to make it happen. NO NO NO I do not want to get into a debate about alien life is there or isnt there. I am just saying it will take something like that to make it happen. 

After reading your confesion of when you were on the Student Senate, I understand your position much better. Your still realing with the Marxist idealism instilled in you by the socialist population of the higher education system. Its not you fault. In all likleyhood it will fade as you get a real job and live in the real word for a few years. You will come to understand. 

America is a great place. Its made greater every day by the ability of people like us to carry on a healthy discusion of our differing points of view.



> In a message dated 3/2/2004 7:06:28 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
> matt@moscowland.com writes:
> The Alamo was an independant action of seperatists hoping to succed from the 
> Mexican terratorial control and had hopes that after they would be anexed by 
> the US. I assume that when yo say "we" you are not indicating you desire to 
> live in the past. 
> The super majority of people fighting in the Alamo were US Citizens: Here a 
> list of the ones that were US Citizens. Some were even members of Congress.
> 
> Mills DeForrest Andross, Vermont
> Micajah Autry, N.C.
> Peter James Bailey, Ky.
> Isaac G. Baker, Ark.
> William Charles M. Baker, Mo.
> John J. Ballentine
> Richard W. Ballantine, Scotland
> John J. Baugh, Va
> Joseph Bayliss, Tenn.
> John Blair, Tenn.
> Samuel C. Blair, Tenn.
> William Blazeby, England
> James Butler Bonham, S.C.
> Daniel Bourne, England
> James Bowie, Tenn
> Jesse B. Bowman
> George Brown, England
> James Brown, Pa.
> Robert Brown
> James Buchanan, Ala.
> Samuel E. Burns, Ireland
> George D. Butler, Mo
> Robert Campbell, Tenn.
> John Cane, Pa.
> William R. Carey, Va.
> Charles Henry Clark, Mo
> M.B. Clark
> Daniel William Cloud, Ky.
> Robert E. Cochran, N.J.
> George Washington Cottle, Tenn.
> Henry Courtman, Germany
> Lemuel Crawford, S.C.
> David Crockett, Tenn.
> Robert Crossman, Mass.
> David P. Cummings, Pa.
> Robert Cunningham, N.Y.
> Jacob C. Darst, Ky.
> John Davis, Ky.
> Freeman H. K. Day
> Jerry C. Day, Mo.
> Squire Daymon, Tenn.
> William Dearduff, Tenn.
> Stephen Dennison, England
> Charles Despallier, La.
> Almeron Dickinson, Tenn.
> John H. Dillard, Tenn.
> James R. Dimpkins, England
> Lewis Duel, N.Y.
> Andrew Duvalt, Ireland
> Carlos Espalier, San Antonio
> Gregorio Esparza, San Antonio
> Robert Evans, Ireland
> Samuel B. Evans, N.Y.
> James L. Ewing, Tenn
> William Fahbaugh, Ala.
> John Flanders, Mass.
> Dolphin Ward Floyd, N.C.
> John Hubbard Forsyth, N.Y.
> Galba Fuqua, Ala.
> William H. Furtleroy, Ky.
> William Garnett, Tenn.
> James W. Garrand, La.
> James Girard Garrett, Tenn.
> John E. Garvin
> John E. Gaston. Ky.
> James George
> John Camp Goodrich, Tenn.
> Albert Calvin Grimes, Ga.
> Jose Maria Guerrero, Laredo, Tex.
> James C. Gwynne, England
> John Harris, Ky.
> Andrew Jackson Harrison
> William B. Harrison, Ohio
> Charles M. Haskell (Heiskell), Tenn.
> Joseph M. Hawkins, Ireland
> John M. Hays, Tenn.
> Patrick Henry Herndon, Va.
> William D. Hersee, England
> Tapley Holland, Ohio
> Samuel Holloway, Pa.
> William D. Howell, Mass.
> Thomas Jackson, Ireland
> William Daniel Jackson, Ireland
> Green B. Jameson, Ky.
> Gordon C. Jennings, Conn.
> Damacio Jimenes, Tex.
> Lewis Johnson, Wales
> William Johnson, Pa.
> John Jones, N.Y
> Johnnie Kellog
> James Kenney, Va.
> Andrew Kent, Ky.
> Joseph Kerr, La.
> George C. Kimball (Kimble), N.Y.
> William P. King
> William Irvine Lewis, Va.
> William J. Lightfoot, Va.
> Jonalhan L. Lindley, IL.
> William Linn, Mass.
> George Washington Main, Va.
> William T. Malone, Va.
> William Marshall, Tenn.
> Albert Martin, Rhode Island
> Edward McCafferty
> Jesse McCoy, Tenn.
> William McDowell, Pa.
> James McGee, Ireland
> John McGregor, Scotland
> Robert McKinney, Ireland
> Eliel Melton, Ga.
> Thomas R. Miller, Tenn.
> William Mills, Tenn.
> Isaac Millsaps, Miss.
> Edward F. Mitchusson, Va.
> Edwin T. Mitchell
> Napoleon B. Mitchell
> Robert B. Moore, Va.
> William Moore, Miss.
> Robert Musselman, Ohio
> Andres Nava, San Antonio
> George Neggan, S.C.
> Andrew M. Nelson, Tenn.
> Edward Nelson S. C.
> George Nelson S.C.
> James Northcross, Va.
> James Nowlan, Ireland
> George Pagan, Miss.
> Christopher Parker, Miss.
> William Parks, N.C.
> Richardson Perry
> Amos Pollard, Mass.
> John Purdy Reynolds, Pa.
> Thomas H. Roberts
> James Robertson, Tenn.
> Isaac Robinson, Scotland
> James M. Rose, Va.
> Jackson J. Rusk Ireland
> Joseph Rutherford, Ky.
> Isaac Ryan, La.
> Mial Scurlock, N.C.
> Marcus L. Sewell, England
> Manson Shied, Ga.
> Cleveland Kinlock Simmons, S.C.
> Andrew H. Smith, Tenn.
> Charles S. Smith, Md.
> Joshua G. Smith, N.C.
> William H. Smith
> Richard Starr, England
> James E. Stewart, England
> Richard L. Stockton, Va.
> A. Spain Summerlin Tenn
> William E. Summers Tenn
> William D. Sutherland, Ala.
> Edward Taylor, Tenn.
> George Taylor, Tenn.
> James Taylor, Tenn.
> William Taylor, Tenn.
> B. Archer M. Thomas, Ky.
> Henry Thomas, Germany
> Jesse G. Thompson, Ark.
> John W. Thomson, N.C.
> John M. Thruston, Pa.
> Burke Trammel, Ireland
> William Barret Travis, S.C.
> George W. Tumlinson, Mo.
> James Tylee, N.Y.
> Asa Walker, Tenn.
> Jacob Walker, Tenn.
> William B. Ward, Ireland
> Henry Warnell, Ark.
> Joseph G. Washington, Tenn.
> Thomas Waters, England
> William Wells, Ga.
> Isaac White, Ky.
> Robert White
> Hiram J. Williamson, Pa.
> William Wills
> David L. Wilson, Scotland
> John Wilson, Pa.
> Anthony Wolfe, England
> Claiborne Wright, N.C.
> Charles Zanco, Denmark
> 
> This are white people that settled on land that was not theirs and fought 
> with violence to steal the land from their rightful owners, Mexicans. Period, end 
> of story.
> 
> 
> If I misquoted you I applogize. It just sickins me when someone dishoners the 
> memories of our heros.
> I am sorry you cannot read what I said. I don't dishonor those that fight. My 
> father was a high ranking officer in the Navy and the managing designer of 
> the electronics for Tomahawk cruise missile. How many lives were saved with that 
> missile? And how many were lost because they were ordered launched against 
> innocent people? Just the idiots that make them fight a pointless battle are 
> ones that I dishonor. I don't regard Custard as a hero even though he wore the 
> American Uniform and died in battle. He is NOT a hero, but a fool and a bigot. 
> Did you know about the Bonus Army, and what American Soldiers did to American 
> Soldiers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for Haiti, your correct they need food, medicine and interest free loans. 
> I am sure that the gangs controling the strets would very much like that. I 
> have an idea, lets restore order then send those things in. I have to call the 
> White House right away. Yo may be on to something.
> Gosh, considering that Bush cannot fix his own country's economy and interest 
> on our debt, cannot even balance a budget with a surplus, do you think he can 
> do better than the thugs on the street? 
> 
> 
> The "Indian Wars" yea, that was terrible. I am not prepared to discuse the 
> wars of other nations, or those of conquest dating back eons. How about the 
> first "caveman" that clubed another for his cave. For that matter lets discuss the 
> Cain & Able issue. I am an American and we were discussing the actions of our 
> sitting President. 
> Yes, and boy have we advanced so beyond the years of those Cavemen that used 
> clubs to beat each other over the heads of their fellow man rather than common 
> sense and talking to solve our problems. 
> BTW, the Indian Wars were in the US. Remember the "Trail of tears"?
> 
> 
> The French. Come on think that through. Your the one who listed the Hundres 
> Years War. They really did a good job in Indochina, Bierut, Somalia, Haiti, The 
> Phillipines. Wait a second. All those places have something in common. I 
> know, its were the French failed and we had to pick up the pieces. Sometimes 
> unsucessfully.
> Yes, and Reagan and Bush Sr. did a good job funding Bin Laudin, Saddam, Iran 
> and Nicaragua. What did they do with all those illegal sumgeled billions of 
> dollars we gave them? Oh, yeah, they used it to slaughter 1000s of Americans and 
> 100,000s of their own people. 
> 
> 
> Granada? Whats wrong with a President sending in Troops to rescue American 
> citizens being held hostage? You dont travel do you?
> What I disagree with is the fact that US wanted to take over Granada to put a 
> military base there. When the Democratically elected Government rejected this 
> idea, the Reagan Administration attempted to remove it.
> 
> 
> The French and Indian war? You need to read up on that one. Its where the 
> Fench inlisted the Indians to kill Colonists. wemon and children included. Are 
> you saying we should have not defended our families. 
> 
> 1812? Thats the one where the British invaded our young nation and burned our 
> Capital. I am missing your point on......no wait I think I get it. You think 
> we should have remained subjects of the King, or yet never have come to these 
> shores.
> No, you don't understand the full war. First of all, the war of 1812 was 
> opposed by even Americans at the time. Madison placed an embargo on British Goods. 
> In 1812 the country relied on British Goods to live. When he did this the 
> American economy fell, and those that had these limited items made a killing, 
> making the rich richer and the poor poorer. The reason that the Embargo was 
> placed was because Americans were stealing British men from their boats, so the 
> British would capture our ships and steal them back. At this time, male laborers 
> were in limited supply in England and thus we placed British welfare in 
> jeopardy. To get back at Britain for this action, we worsened their plight by not 
> buying their goods and weakening their economy. So after the war was over, both 
> sides rejoiced to no end.
> It was a pointless war. 
> 
> 
> "How about Korea, defending against an aggressor and all that. Remeber the 
> North invaded the South before we got involved."
> 
> And that all turned out for the better too. Remember how the Republican 
> President Eisenhower pulled us out because he didn't like the war and thought it 
> wasn't worth fighting. Oh Yeah.  
> 
> "I suppose your one of those that feels we should not be involved in the 
> Middle East,"
> 
> Humm, I though you just made the opposite case that in the North Korean war 
> against Aggressors. So when another country invades a country we should are 
> justified. But when we do it is also justified? I don't get it? Remember when we 
> called the Soviet Union the Evil Empire because it did preemptive strikes 
> against innocent little nations?
> 
> "chanting "no blood for oil" while driving three blocks to work, wearing your 
> rain coat and rubber boots on nasty days, enjoying all the comforts of home. 
> When you protested the Gulf war, did you use OIL paint to make your signs. I 
> bet you even complain when gas gets close to $2.00 per gallon. I know you still 
> dont think its worth one life. You may be right. Before you take a stand, try 
> for just one day to not use any products or materials that oil had a hand in 
> producing. That includes food."
> 
> I don't doubt at all that oil is an important part of an industrialized 
> world. But keep in mind two important factors. One, humans lived for a long time 
> before oil was used for anything other than maybe fire so we can live that way 
> again. And second, I didn't create the oil dependent world, the oil industry 
> did, a smart business move. Nor, as a single individual can I change that 
> reality. However, I can push for society to strive for alternative means to plastics 
> and transportation for goods and fuel. To suggest that one individual should 
> give up goods and transportation because he/she cannot change the entire 
> infrastructure of the industrialized world in a single night or should give up the 
> fight to save the environment and/or prevent war is not only erroneous 
> thinking, but would only and could only be made but someone who is simple minded and 
> only thinks in the immediate future and not the long term.
> While I do think that "No Blood for Oil" is putting the war in simplified 
> terms, most do understand that the main reason the US has gone to war over the 
> last 50 years has been for the purpose of generating a profit for private 
> businesses that then give portions of the profits to the campaigns of those that 
> supported the profits and allowed the war to take place. For example, Helliburtin 
> does lots of business of reconstruction of Iraq. Helliburtin was a big 
> supporter of Dick Cheney who was surprisingly an employee of Helliburtin who have 
> him a job right after he finished running a war against Iraq the first time we 
> blew it up. 
> 
> "By preventing instability in the rest of the world we are defending our 
> country. Remeber WWI(the one you indicatedwas not a moral war), by remaining 
> isolationist the war got to the point where its was more costly then it needed to 
> be. Wasnt that kind of the same problem in WWII, Neval?"
> 
> Nope, WWI was about two seperate factions fighting over boarders. WWII was 
> about defending the nation against Japan that attacked and tried to take over 
> the US. We fought on the other side of the world to help out our ally Britian. 
> Further, the way WWI ended lead to the creation of Adolf Hitler that lead to 
> another war and the slaughter of millions of innocent people. 
> 
> "Yea, U.I.senat, hey thats great. Your not living in the past are you?"
> 
> I wasn't living there. Just pointing as a reference of how I vote, since you 
> asked or assumed how I would vote on the issues. I don't think less than one 
> year ago was that far in the past. Some might refer to it is as the very recent 
> past.
> 
> I don't oppose war because all war is evil. I oppose war because people go to 
> war for profit. I don't think anyone should profit from war. It should be 
> fought because it is right thing to do and more lives will be saved than lost and 
> nobody should become a millionaire off a war. That is not a party of morals, 
> it is the party of immorality. 
> 
> Respectfully,
> Donovan J Arnold
>