[Vision2020] RE: A (Boring) Liberal World

[amy smoucha]

Joshua, speaking of Abraham et al.  How does your representation of marriage 
go along with Abraham's story--he was married to his half-sister, Sarah.  
When she couldn't bear a child, she brought Hagar to him and the rest is, 
well, Biblical history.  You seem to have very rigid ideas of right and 
wrong that you claim are Biblical.  God's history with Judao Christian 
people is not so clear.  In fact, Jesus didn't even model marriage, yet he 
was showing us the way?  And Jesus was born to an unmarried woman.

Joshua, on November 12, you wrote:

"Or do you deny God exists, declare that these underprivileged people over 
here somehow "deserve" that gold colored crayon since their crayon box 
didn't have one, and redistribute wealth? The situation seems petty, and it 
is, but small lies lead to big ones, and so do small principles. No one 
"deserves" anything, except justice. That is the whole point. Justice 
doesn't allow for giving, for mercy, for kindness. Justice comes down with 
the razor edge and divides the "haves"-those who obey from the "have 
nots"-those who don't. No one does. So we all need reconciling. God's mercy 
reconciles us in the right way, His way. And that way doesn't include big 
vats of school supplies redistributed equally among every student. God 
blesses some more than others. Some students have more than others. It is 
the way the world is and no amount of equal sharing will change it."

I challenged you and asked:
"Where in the bible do you find that reasoning, please? And where did Jesus 
model or teach behavior consistent with your opinion?

I find quite the opposite in Isaiah, Amos, Proverbs, Deuteronomy, Micah . . 
. . Heck Jesus "stole" some bread and fish from individuals and 
redistributed them to all, and he made a pretty big impression about 
community and providing for each other, and--oh yeah--faith. Didn't he also 
suggest that a wealthy young businessman should sell everything he has and 
give the money to the poor (who of course don't "deserve" it right)? He also 
told people to pay their taxes
. . .

So, Dale and Joshua, it's unfortunate that we have read very, very different 
books, somehow. The books I read tell me to value community over property. 
They tell me to pay taxes for schools, health care, welfare programs, roads, 
clean water, programs for the elderly, and more and more and more. I act out 
of charity too, making donations and volunteering my time toward similar 
ends. But I see no inconsistency in having government take up those tasks as 
well and taxing us all to do so.
I sure would be interested, though, in the biblical basis for your thoughts 
above. There is, after all, a whole lot more than the eighth commandment to 
consider."

Joshua, you wrote me back that you would answer me, but you wanted time to 
"be wise" when you did.  It's really unfair and insincere to post these 
strongly-worded, didactic, supposedly Biblically-based messages when you are 
not willing to discuss and explain the Biblical bases.  You say things are 
so because the Bible says and shows, but you can't tell us where the Bible 
says and shows the things you say are so.  It's a bit crazy-making to try to 
keep up with you.

Please review our Nov. 12 exchange, and this one, and explain how the Bible 
and Jesus' teachings support your statements.

Thanks in advance,

Amy Smoucha





----Original Message Follows----
From: Joshua Nieuwsma <joshuahendrik@yahoo.com>
To: vision <vision2020@moscow.com>
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] RE: A (Boring) Liberal World
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:37:10 -0800 (PST)

Again, visionaries, not looking to have any debate, so don't expect any 
response emails to questions (unless sent offlist). Just some comments on 
this "A Liberal World" string. Seems to me that a world where naked breasts 
and buttocks are a common sight is a world where sexuality no longer has any 
mystique. The liberal way removes the beauty of the naked human body, 
because it makes it common. The liberal way is even worse than the way of 
the Renaissance, who for all their problems at least elevated the body in 
beautiful artwork. They saw it as beautiful and special, even if they stared 
too much at other men's wives on the wall... If Da Vinci had made as many 
paintings as Thomas Kinkade, no doubt they would be worth far less than they 
currently are. Mankind naturally

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