[Vision2020] The Divinity of Christ

Tue Dec 28 19:45:19 PST 2004

Still on vacation but able to enjoy the exchange, this self-identified 
evangelical wades in . . .

I believe in the Trinity (which, by definition, includes the divinity of 
Jesus Christ), the virgin birth, the atonement, the resurrection, the 
veracity of Scripture in the original manuscripts and translated with a 
context-respecting hermeneutic, the personal return of Christ at some point 
unknown to me and to Tim LaHaye, and the transforming power of the gospel.  
I can recite the Nicene Creed with gusto and with confidence.  That makes me 
a minority on this list, which doesn't hurt my feelings and doesn't seem to 
bother my many friends who disagree with me on every single point above.  
Nonetheless, I understand that there are some Lurking Kirkers who doubt that 
I truly believe, and so I gladly testify that I do:  I worship Jesus Christ 
as my Lord and Savior by his word and his grace, and in him I live and move 
and have my being, as it says in Acts.

And I voted enthusiastically for John Kerry.

Go figure.  Or don't.  But it seems disingenious for me to sit this one out, 
if only because of the concern for my Christian walk that seems to be 
bubbling through the Amen corner of Vision 2020.

Looking forward to seeing Royal City again real soon,

keely emerine mix

>From: "Ron Smith" <ron_smith at md7.com>
>To: <vision2020 at moscow.com>
>Subject: [Vision2020] The Divinity of Christ
>Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2004 16:26:26 -0800
>
>Ms. Opyr says: "The first three gospels (and the excluded Book of
>Thomas) sing a rather different tune about the divinity of Jesus."
>
>
>
>Ms. Opyr, this is simply not true. While I have not read the gospel
>according to Thomas, I believe that Thomas himself attested to the
>divinity of Jesus. John 20:28 Thomas said to him [Jesus], "My Lord and
>my God!"
>
>
>
>As for the other gospels, Jesus is repeatedly called the Son of God.
>
>
>
>Matthew 26:63-64 And the high priest said to Him, "I adjure You by the
>living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of
>God." Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself."
>
>Matthew 27:54 Now the centurion, and those who were with him keeping
>guard over Jesus, when they saw the earthquake and the things that were
>happening, became very frightened and said, "Truly this was the Son of
>God!"
>
>Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.
>
>Mark 3:11 Whenever the unclean spirits saw Him, they would fall down
>before Him and shout, "You are the Son of God!"
>
>Mark 15:39 When the centurion, who was standing right in front of Him,
>saw the way He breathed His last, he said, "Truly this man was the Son
>of God!"
>
>Luke 1:35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come
>upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for
>that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
>
>Luke 4:41 Demons also were coming out of many, shouting, "You are the
>Son of God!" But rebuking them, He would not allow them to speak,
>because they knew Him to be the Christ.
>
>Luke 22:70 And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He
>[Jesus] said to them, "Yes, I am."
>
>
>
>He is called other names as well which testify to his divinity - names
>like "Christ", "Messiah", and "Lord".
>
>
>
>It is better for you to simply reject the gospel that to poorly
>represent it.
>
>Proverbs 17:28 Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise;
>When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.
>
>________________________________
>
>From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On Behalf Of Joan Opyr
>Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2004 3:03 PM
>To: Vision2020 Moscow
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Dropping a log on Dale's blog
>
>
>
>Dear Saundra,
>
>
>
>As you've no doubt noticed, Ron Smith believes he's answered me by
>quoting John 2:23: "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the
>one who confesses the Son has the Father also."  This, of course,
>suggests that I'm on my way to a fiery rotisserie in hell where I'll
>spend eternity listening to the Chili's kitchen chorus singing, "I want
>my baby back, baby back, baby back ribs."  That's as may be, but it does
>not make me a "professed atheist."  Ron (and Dale) need to pay more
>attention to their vocabulary: what we're talking about here is
>semantics, not salvation.
>
>
>
>No, I don't "have the son."  I don't believe that Jesus was/is the one
>and only son of God.  I don't believe in his divinity.  I don't believe
>that God is tripartite.  But I am not an atheist.  If I were, I'd
>believe in no god at all.  None.  Nada.  Rien.  I'd happily sing John
>Lennon's Imagine with a perfectly straight face.  But that's not me.
>I'm singing "Hear, O Israel, the Lord, our God, the Lord is One."  (Shma
>Yisrael, Ha'Shem Elokenu Ha'Shem Echad.)  Now that might be heathenism
>in Ron and Dale's book; it might be hellfire and damnation; but it ain't
>atheism.
>
>
>
>Thus endeth the lesson.  Reading for Shabbat school next week: Elaine
>Pagels' Beyond Belief, which will teach Ron and Dale a thing or two
>about the origins of the Book of John and the fight in the early church
>over whether or not to include it in the Biblical canon.  The first
>three gospels (and the excluded Book of Thomas) sing a rather different
>tune about the divinity of Jesus.
>
>
>
>Shalom (with teeth gritted),
>
>Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>
>	From: Saundra Lund
>
>	Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:59 PM
>
>	To: 'Joan Opyr'; 'Vision2020 Moscow'
>
>	Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Dropping a log on Dale's blog
>
>
>
>	Ah, Joan, Joan, Joan . . .
>
>	Dale Courtney monologued:
>	"It cracks me up when Joan--a professed atheist . . . "
>	http://right-mind.us/
>
>	Your response:
>	"I am not an atheist; I am a Jew.  I believe in one God . . ."
>
>	Why are you quibbling details?
>
>	I think, in Wilson World's book, there is no real difference:
>if you reject the
>	Trinity (and their own peculiar interpretation of the Trinity &
>Christianity, no
>	less), then you are damned to h*ll, pure & simple.  It matters
>not how strong
>	your faith in God:  if you don't accept their particular flavor
>of Christianity
>	(and sharing the first five books of the Bible just isn't good
>enough), then
>	nothing else matters.  You are an UnBeliever or a Non-Believer,
>depending on
>	which minion you are listening to.  Heck, they think a lot of
>Christians like
>	myself won't be making it to Heaven, either, so you're in good
>company  :-)
>
>	[Actually, I'm quite secure in my belief that Heaven will be a
>wonderfully rich
>	place with a wide variety of faiths.  I'll be there, and so will
>you, and lots
>	of other fascinating folk and beings.
>
>	However, I suspect that those who will be conspicuously and
>blessedly absent
>	will be those who lived truly *wicked* lives.  You know, those
>who think they
>	know better than everyone else what God *really* wants, those
>with the "holier
>	than thou" attitude, those who try to force their beliefs on
>others to line
>	their own pockets, those who think it's their place to sit in
>judgment of
>	others, etc.
>
>	Of course, I could well be wrong about that, and that's OK:  I
>have supreme
>	confidence in God's, not Dale's or Doug's, ability to sort it
>all out  :-)]
>
>	So, while Dale screwed up calling you an atheist, it doesn't
>really matter:  you
>	are going straight to h*ll, young lady, unless you change your
>beliefs and
>	practices.
>
>	And, now I'm going to be childish and immature and gloat a bit:
>I've had the
>	*extreme* pleasure of reading Joan's forthcoming book . . .
>	neener-neener-neener!  Next Fall, when it's published, I
>strongly suggest that
>	everyone RUN to get it  :-)  It is truly a delightfully
>entertaining work penned
>	by an obviously gifted writer!  In fact, I've had to change my
>top position for
>	the best new fiction  :-)
>
>	Joan, I know it's probably too early to ask, but is there a
>local book-signing
>	planned???
>
>
>	Saundra Lund
>	Moscow, ID
>
>	The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good
>people to do
>	nothing.
>	-Edmund Burke
>
>	-----Original Message-----
>	From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com
>[mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On
>	Behalf Of Joan Opyr
>	Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 5:22 PM
>	To: Vision2020 Moscow
>	Subject: [Vision2020] Dropping a log on Dale's blog
>
>	Dear Visionaries,
>
>	As I've mentioned before, I don't follow Dale Courtney's or Doug
>Wilson's blogs.
>	This is because A) I'm very busy these days plugging the
>upcoming publication of
>	my *book; and B) if I wanted any more crap out of either of
>them, I'd squeeze
>	their heads.  However, as several people have now emailed me
>privately to tell
>	me that Dale has referred to me as an atheist, I feel that I
>must lower the boom
>	on his blog and set the record straight.  (Or as straight as I
>can considering
>	the fact that I'm a lesbian and thus by definition as bent as a
>dog's hind leg.
>	But I digress.  As usual.  A-hem.)
>
>	I am not an atheist; I am a Jew.  I believe in one God, and that
>one God would
>	be the God of Abraham.  Dale, as a self-proclaimed Reformed
>Christian,
>	technically worships the same God I worship.  The only
>difference is that Dale
>	has given my God a few accessories, like a son, a Virgin, and a
>split
>	personality (think The Three Faces of Eve).  Now, I happen to
>like my God simple
>	and singular, not Trinitarian, not belled, and not whistled.
>Nevertheless, I
>	believe that it is incumbent upon Dale (and, for that matter,
>upon all
>	Christians) to recognize that the God they worship is the God of
>the Jews.  The
>	Burning Bush  The voice on Mount Sinai.  The pillar of fire and
>cloud.  Jehovah
>	is Jehovah is Jehovah, but that doesn't mean that unless I
>worship him in
>	triplicate, I'm an atheist.  Far from it.
>
>	If I were in any way childish or immature, I might go so far as
>to remind Dale
>	that my people got to the flaming shrubbery first, and that he
>and his ilk are
>	really just a load of Johnny-come-latelys.  I might toss in a
>"neener-neener,"
>	or a "nyuk-nyuk," or a "shut yer yap, ya ignorant gentile."
>Good thing I'm not,
>	eh?  That would be so tacky.
>
>	I've got a brand new pair of roller-skates.  I want Dale to give
>me back my key.
>
>
>	Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
>	*book, as in first novel, as in to be published in the Fall of
>2005 by Bywater
>	Books, which can be visited at www.bywaterbooks.com
><http://wwwbywaterbooks.com>
>	.
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
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