[Vision2020] Dropping a log on Dale's blog

Tue Dec 28 10:08:28 PST 2004

Saundra, et al,

At the risk of repeating, I post below passages from the New Testament which were discussed on V 2020 below.  These passages seem quite clear about who will go to heaven if the New Testament claims are true.

The passages say:

1.    God will look at each and every person who ever existed in the world at some future time.

2.    God will review the records and separate humankind into two groups:  sheep and goats.

3.    The sheep are those which helped the unfortunate the best or nearly the best they could in any manner they could -- the hungry, sick, etc.

4.    The sheep will go to heaven.

5.    The goats will not.

6.    Admittance to heaven depends SOLELY upon the treatment of others and not upon any particular religious belief, or asking for forgiveness, loving God, etc.

The passages below are disturbing to those who think that only people who are Christians of their particular sect/cult's beliefs will be rewarded by the alleged God of the Christians.  If they claim the passages at issue are in error or incomplete, then they are admitting the bible is not inerrant.  Once the possibility errancy is admitted, a whole new can of worms is opened:

If some of the bible is errant, then which passages, if any, are true.  How can you tell?
If God is all-powerful or even just very powerful, why didn't God do a much better job on the bible, his alleged instruction manual to humankind for achieving an ecstatic, eternal life?  If God can't produce a clear, demonstrably true guide for us to achieve the grand prize of eternal life, then can She/He/It we trusted to inerrantly deliver on the promise of heaven made?  Etc.

Perhaps Christ Church Cult Master Douglas Wilson or his spokesperson/alter-ego Dale Courtney will deign to post a response on V 2020 on these not trivial questions to those that claim to be Christians.  Perhaps Eric E. will also post a response since the passages at issue seem to conflict with his previously posted goals of saving souls not by urging them (and himself) to do good deeds (as define in the passages below), but to love God, ask for forgiveness, accept Christ, etc.  The passages at issue certainly indicate that he is on the wrong track.

Comments from a non-believer but none-the-less interested observer,

Art Deco (Wayne A. Fox)
deco at moscow.com

_______________________
From: the New Revised Standard Edition of the Bible:

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' 37Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?' 40And the king will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,£ you did it to me.' 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' 44Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?' 45Then he will answer them, 'Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

>From Young's Literal Translation of the Bible:

31'And whenever the Son of Man may come in his glory, and all the holy messengers with him, then he shall sit upon a throne of his glory; 32and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats, 33and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left. 
34'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I did hunger, and ye gave me to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me to drink; I was a stranger, and ye received me; 36naked, and ye put around me; I was infirm, and ye looked after me; in prison I was, and ye came unto me.

37'Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, and we nourished? or thirsting, and we gave to drink? 38and when did we see thee a stranger, and we received? or naked, and we put around? 39and when did we see thee infirm, or in prison, and we came unto thee?

40'And the king answering, shall say to them, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it to one of these my brethren-the least-to me ye did it.

41Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; 42for I did hunger, and ye gave me not to eat; I did thirst, and ye gave me not to drink; 43a stranger I was, and ye did not receive me; naked, and ye put not around me; infirm, and in prison, and ye did not look after me.

44'Then shall they answer, they also, saying, Lord, when did we see thee hungering, or thirsting, or a stranger, or naked, or infirm, or in prison, and we did not minister to thee?

45'Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of these, the least, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Saundra Lund" <sslund at adelphia.net>
To: "'Joan Opyr'" <auntiestablishment at hotmail.com>; "'Vision2020 Moscow'" <vision2020 at moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2004 9:59 PM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Dropping a log on Dale's blog

> Ah, Joan, Joan, Joan . . . 
> 
> Dale Courtney monologued:
> "It cracks me up when Joan--a professed atheist . . . "
> http://right-mind.us/
> 
> Your response:
> "I am not an atheist; I am a Jew.  I believe in one God . . ."
> 
> Why are you quibbling details?
> 
> I think, in Wilson World's book, there is no real difference:  if you reject the
> Trinity (and their own peculiar interpretation of the Trinity & Christianity, no
> less), then you are damned to h*ll, pure & simple.  It matters not how strong
> your faith in God:  if you don't accept their particular flavor of Christianity
> (and sharing the first five books of the Bible just isn't good enough), then
> nothing else matters.  You are an UnBeliever or a Non-Believer, depending on
> which minion you are listening to.  Heck, they think a lot of Christians like
> myself won't be making it to Heaven, either, so you're in good company  :-)
> 
> [Actually, I'm quite secure in my belief that Heaven will be a wonderfully rich
> place with a wide variety of faiths.  I'll be there, and so will you, and lots
> of other fascinating folk and beings.
> 
> However, I suspect that those who will be conspicuously and blessedly absent
> will be those who lived truly *wicked* lives.  You know, those who think they
> know better than everyone else what God *really* wants, those with the "holier
> than thou" attitude, those who try to force their beliefs on others to line
> their own pockets, those who think it's their place to sit in judgment of
> others, etc.
> 
> Of course, I could well be wrong about that, and that's OK:  I have supreme
> confidence in God's, not Dale's or Doug's, ability to sort it all out  :-)]
> 
> So, while Dale screwed up calling you an atheist, it doesn't really matter:  you
> are going straight to h*ll, young lady, unless you change your beliefs and
> practices.
> 
> And, now I'm going to be childish and immature and gloat a bit:  I've had the
> *extreme* pleasure of reading Joan's forthcoming book . . .
> neener-neener-neener!  Next Fall, when it's published, I strongly suggest that
> everyone RUN to get it  :-)  It is truly a delightfully entertaining work penned
> by an obviously gifted writer!  In fact, I've had to change my top position for
> the best new fiction  :-)
> 
> Joan, I know it's probably too early to ask, but is there a local book-signing
> planned???
> 
> 
> Saundra Lund
> Moscow, ID
> 
> The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good people to do
> nothing.
> -Edmund Burke
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-bounces at moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-bounces at moscow.com] On
> Behalf Of Joan Opyr
> Sent: Sunday, December 26, 2004 5:22 PM
> To: Vision2020 Moscow
> Subject: [Vision2020] Dropping a log on Dale's blog
> 
> Dear Visionaries,
> 
> As I've mentioned before, I don't follow Dale Courtney's or Doug Wilson's blogs.
> This is because A) I'm very busy these days plugging the upcoming publication of
> my *book; and B) if I wanted any more crap out of either of them, I'd squeeze
> their heads.  However, as several people have now emailed me privately to tell
> me that Dale has referred to me as an atheist, I feel that I must lower the boom
> on his blog and set the record straight.  (Or as straight as I can considering
> the fact that I'm a lesbian and thus by definition as bent as a dog's hind leg.
> But I digress.  As usual.  A-hem.)
> 
> I am not an atheist; I am a Jew.  I believe in one God, and that one God would
> be the God of Abraham.  Dale, as a self-proclaimed Reformed Christian,
> technically worships the same God I worship.  The only difference is that Dale
> has given my God a few accessories, like a son, a Virgin, and a split
> personality (think The Three Faces of Eve).  Now, I happen to like my God simple
> and singular, not Trinitarian, not belled, and not whistled.  Nevertheless, I
> believe that it is incumbent upon Dale (and, for that matter, upon all
> Christians) to recognize that the God they worship is the God of the Jews.  The
> Burning Bush.  The voice on Mount Sinai.  The pillar of fire and cloud.  Jehovah
> is Jehovah is Jehovah, but that doesn't mean that unless I worship him in
> triplicate, I'm an atheist.  Far from it.  
> 
> If I were in any way childish or immature, I might go so far as to remind Dale
> that my people got to the flaming shrubbery first, and that he and his ilk are
> really just a load of Johnny-come-latelys.  I might toss in a "neener-neener,"
> or a "nyuk-nyuk," or a "shut yer yap, ya ignorant gentile."  Good thing I'm not,
> eh?  That would be so tacky.
> 
> I've got a brand new pair of roller-skates.  I want Dale to give me back my key.
> 
> 
> Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
> *book, as in first novel, as in to be published in the Fall of 2005 by Bywater
> Books, which can be visited at www.bywaterbooks.com <http://wwwbywaterbooks.com>
> .
> 
> 
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