[Vision2020] LMT 8/25/04 Moscow Chamber Rumors Denied

[Joan Opyr]

I appreciate Tami's observations and, what's more, I agree with them.  I have a terrible temper, I admit it.  It doesn't take much to set me off.  Doug, Pat Kraut, David Douglas and others have posted things to this list that have forced me onto a narrow ledge in the inky blackness, wondering just why it is that I continue to believe in liberty, equality, and universal enfranchisement.  Wouldn't it just be better to take a big stick, beat the hell out of Frodo, and seize the One Ring?  Then I could happily dictate to the world until I was old and toothless, like Gollum.  Sure, it's a sick fantasy, but who doesn't occasionally want to be Queen for a Day?  Eventually, I expect someone would get tired of my 24/7 liberal paradise and push me into the old lava bath, but it would be fun while it lasted.

Fortunately, there is no One Ring.  People will talk.  In fact, you can't shut them up.  And that's a good thing.  I find that I sharpen my thinking more by listening to (and railing against) my enemies than I do by agreeing with my friends.  The key, I've found, is to maintain a sense of humor.  I listen better when I'm amused.  I think more clearly when I find something funny or incongruous or challenging in my opponent's argument.  Better a sound disagreement than knee-jerk support.

That said, in light of Dave Johnson's article and Janice McMillan's dismissive assessment of this list, I think it's important to point out that just because people might agree with one another politically, they don't necessarily agree with one another's communication style.  They don't necessarily agree on tactics.  I think this is especially true of people on the left.  Liberals are not monolithic; liberals have never been monolithic.  We are by definition iconoclasts.  Liberals are notorious for fighting among ourselves when we ought to be fighting against the right.  (How else could we have acquired our current minority government?  George Bush lost the popular vote, and poll after poll has shown that the vast majority of Americans are pro-choice, pro-labor, pro-universal health care, and, if not pro-gay marriage then at least pro-civil unions.  This is not the GOP platform; not by a long shot.  So why are we not governed by majority consensus?  Because we can't get our liberal shit together, that's why)

It would ill behoove me to call for civility on this list.  In the first place, I want to maintain my right to be rude.  Being rude is an essential part of being funny.  Sometimes, the Baptist preacher's wife needs to sit on a whoopee cushion.  It does her good.  Do I believe that it's possible to go too far?  Sure, and we all do it, left, right, and center.  My solution has been to use a Bozo-filter.  I use it a lot.  So much so (and on so many 2020 posters) that I noticed a few weeks ago that I was only getting one or two posts a day.  Half the list was on my Bozo filter!  So I took it off, and now I'm getting the unfiltered 2020, all the aggravations, all the amusement, all the wise observations and all the slack-jawed idiocy.  I'll see how long I can stand it, and then I'll readjust.  One day at a time, as those damned annoying twelve-steppers say.   

I don't care if Janice McMillan wants to rail against the "garbage" she suspects is on Vision 2020.  Occasionally, this place is stinking midden.  But then, so is the Sunday editorial page in the Lewiston Morning Tribune.  Six letters about John Kerry's war medals.  Ten letters about the inerrancy of the Bible.  Five letters about the idiocy of those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.  A complaint about the smell from the EKO recycling center.  Complaints about loose dogs, fast drivers, Jim Fisher, high gas prices, pro-lifers, pro-choicers, and, always, one lonely letter about the dangers of thyroid.  Let's be honest -- it's not Vision 2020 that's on Ms. McMillan's nerves; it's the world.

Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment

---- Original Message -----
From: Tami Stinebaugh
Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 2004 2:29 PM
To: Melynda Huskey
Cc: vision2020 at moscow.com
Subject: Re: RE: [Vision2020] LMT 8/25/04 Moscow Chamber Rumors Denied

Melynda,

>From my perspective, I can really see both sides of this.  I try to keep out of most of the arguing that takes place on vision 2020 because it seems rather pointless most of the time, and nothing really gets accomplished.  I am a person who considers herself an independent but I typically lean to the left.  However, even though I usually agree with what is being said by the majority of vision 2020 posters, I tend to feel the need to be defensive of people on the right, even though I don't agree with what they are saying!  The point is that it seems that anybody who posts something from a religious/ conservative perspective, typically gets several emails quickly posted back that slams the door shut on what they are trying to say.  I personally like to hear from both sides because sometimes I don't understand AT ALL where they are coming from.  When vision 2020 gets a post with a perspective not typical of most active list members, I LIKE to read it.  It doesn't mean I agree w
ith it, but appreciate the insight and feel it gives more information about where both sides are coming from.  I don't typically agree with Pat Kraut for example, but hope she doesn't go away because I like to hear her perspective.  Does it mean I am a religious/right wing conservative?  Far from it!  I just enjoy the different point of view and the insight it gives me, and feel like she absolutely has the right to express her concerns and thoughts on all topics.  (That is not to say that I feel all right wing conservatives are represented by Pat Kraut either, she was the first one to come to mind)

My fear is that other vision 2020 members who lurk, and do not agree with the majority of the posts on this listserve, do not feel comfortable to speak their minds because of what generally happens to people who speak out against the majority.  Just like I said, I feel like I need to be defensive, and I don't even agree with "the other side"!  Most of the time, it is not typically the argument that is certain to come from list members that is most troubling, but the way in which the message is delivered.  It slams the door on any sort of discussion, conversation, or experience sharing and delivers the message that you either agree with us, or you shut up.  That is what I totally disagree with about this list.   

If somebody posted a message about women being less than equal to men, or black people or gay people somehow being less than white or straight people, then I would emphatically disagree and certainly understand why people would respond in force, but I still respect their right to say so and actually would like to hear the reasoning behind such things.  Understanding the basis for such ideas is the only way we will ever learn, and perhaps make things better.  Insulting, name-calling, and belittling (even if "they" started it) is as childish as it sounds, does nothing to help the matter, and only makes the separation on vision 2020, and citizens of Moscow that much harder to overcome.  Sometimes the posters who squeak the loudest are the primary ones who get heard, and that is probably where the comments you posted below, came from.  Unfortunately, those who are the most brutal, insulting, and belittling with their posts, are the ones who are remembered and reflected in that a
rticle.  That's my opinion anyway;)

Tami Stinebaugh Get more from the Web.  FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://mailman.fsr.com/pipermail/vision2020/attachments/20040825/b1c07d16/attachment.htm