[Vision2020] Fw: Iraq

thansen@moscow.com thansen@moscow.com
Tue, 6 Apr 2004 18:25:20 GMT


Yes.  It takes a real man to pound his chest in Iraq while drowning out the 
screams of slaughtered Rwandans.

What is the death count today, Mr. Bush?



> I can't quite put my finger on why I feel this way, but I think Pat and I 
> disagree about Iraq and George W. (Elite Force Aviator) Bush.  I don't 
> know...just a gut feeling.                                                   
>                                                                              
>                                                                              
>                                                                       Carl 
> Westberg Jr.
> 
> 
> >From: "Pat Kraut" <pkraut@moscow.com>
> >To: "vision2020" <vision2020@moscow.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
> >Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2004 10:04:16 -0700
> >
> >Even tho there are areas where killing and warfare is still happening and 
> >will no matter what we or anyone else does. There are areas where great 
> >things are happening. We won't hear it in our media but the returning 
> >forces and in some other quiet places the good news is there. Just as in 
> >the story about Rowanda there are those picking up the opportunity to pull 
> >away from tribal warfare and begin to form a new country. It will take 
> >dilignece on our part and a leadership that won't step down. We do not need 
> >leadership that is whining to the UN and other countries that 'we need 
> >help' when all they will do is muck up the process with their own demands.
> >As to the war being about oil and revenge for daddy. This shows such a 
> >complete ignorance about oil in the world and who Bush is that it isn't 
> >even worthy of a site where people claim to be learned.
> >PK
> >
> >   Fellow Humans,
> >
> >   I'm afraid that I'm always stuck with asking the irritating questions, 
> >but here goes:
> >
> >   Would as many people have been killed, maimed, tortured, burned, or 
> >suffered and continue to suffer the loss of relatives, friends, jobs, the 
> >simple pleasures of life, etc. if there had been no war and Saddam was 
> >still in power?
> >
> >   Is it possible, as disgusting as it may seem, that a strong dictatorship 
> >is needed where ethnic and religious hate make peaceful co-existence 
> >improbable without an iron hand?  Look what happened and is still happening 
> >in formerly Yugoslavia after Tito.
> >
> >   How many people per day in Iraq were harmed by Saddam as compared to 
> >those harmed  during the last year?
> >
> >   How will thousands of years of hate and dependence on unverifiable 
> >religious dogma be erased or altered?  Will Iraq (or Afghanistan) become 
> >another Israel vs. Arabs going on for who knows how long with huge amounts 
> >of extreme human suffering?
> >
> >   America and the world with current American leadership is floundering in 
> >a mess of their own creating.  Will a change of leadership help?  Is there 
> >a solution at all?
> >
> >   I don't have the solution and I suspect no one really does, but needed 
> >knowledge is missing at present to solve the problem.
> >
> >   Where do all go from here?  Please do not answer with more religious 
> >dogma -- that is what partially placed all in this horrendous situation!
> >
> >   Sorrowfully,
> >
> >   Wayne
> >
> >   Art Deco  (Wayne Fox)
> >   deco@moscow.com
> >
> >
> >     ----- Original Message -----
> >     From: Tom Hansen
> >     To: Joan Opyr ; Vision2020 Moscow
> >     Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:39 PM
> >     Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
> >
> >
> >     Greetings Visionaires -
> >
> >     Although Mr. Finkbiner's suggestions are well intended, they are 
> >likely to occur immediately following a same-sex marriage conducted by 
> >Douglas Wilson.
> >
> >     Let's evaluate each of his three requirements in achieving a viable 
> >solution.
> >
> >     "1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides 
> >stability and the rule of law."
> >
> >     And how is this to be achieved?  A government consisting of a 
> >coalition representative of local religions?  Not likely since the Kurds, 
> >Shiites, and Suunis having been warring with each other for over a thousand 
> >years.
> >
> >     "2) Does not further inflame the region."
> >
> >     Nope.  No warm fuzzy here, either.  See 1) above.  And
> >
> >     "3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than 
> >flounder from mistake to mistake."
> >
> >     This has not been achieved since the Great Hate of the early 1940s.  I 
> >certainly do not see any FDRs or Harry Trumans on the horizon.  As long as 
> >the deck consists of Bushes, Cheneys, Quayles, Clintons, and Gores, we will 
> >just have to play the cards we are dealt.
> >
> >     It was a mistake getting into Iraq.  It is becoming a bigger mistake 
> >the longer we remain there.  I can see us staying until June 30th (when the 
> >new government is scheduled to take control), since we promised the people 
> >of Iraq (more specificaly the Kurds) that timeline.
> >
> >     Tom Hansen
> >     Moscow, Idaho
> >
> >
> >       -----Original Message-----
> >       From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com 
> >[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On Behalf Of Joan Opyr
> >       Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:34 PM
> >       To: Vision2020 Moscow
> >       Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq
> >
> >
> >       Hi all,
> >
> >       Mike Finkbiner is no longer active on 2020, but he reads the Digest 
> >and asked me to forward this.
> >
> >       Joan
> >
> >         ----- Original Message -----
> >         From: Mike Finkbiner
> >         Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 2:48 PM
> >         To: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com
> >         Subject: Iraq
> >
> >         One of the saddest things I see about the Iraq situation is that 
> >people are arguing about why we got into this mess instead of working on 
> >finding a solution.
> >
> >         Setting the administration's failures aside for a moment, I think 
> >we need to work towards building a solution in Iraq that:
> >
> >         1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides 
> >stability and the rule of law.
> >
> >         2) Does not further inflame the region.
> >
> >         3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather 
> >than flounder from mistake to mistake.
> >
> >         I don't know if the current administration is capable of making 
> >that happen.  I'm afraid there might not be <anyone> who could make it 
> >happen, but if we spend most of our energy arguing over the cause rather 
> >than working towards the solution, we are just going to end up in a worse 
> >mess.
> >
> >         The Bush administration has demonstrated an ugly level of 
> >dishonesty over this whole affair, but what's worse, I'm afraid, is that 
> >they have demonstrated a high level of ignorance and incompetance.
> >
> >         Stupid and lazy people don't cause many problems, intelligent and 
> >active people tend to solve problems, stupid and active people are capable 
> >of making a real mess.
> >
> >         But it's a mess we can't honorably walk away from so I hope we can 
> >concentrate finding a solution that works.
> >
> >         Bush deserves to get tossed out on his ear.  I hope Kerry can do 
> >that without promising to abandon the Iraqi people.
> >
> >         Mike
> >
> >         Mike Finkbiner
> >         mike_l_f@hotmail.com
> >
> >         Civilization is not something inborn or imperishable; it must be 
> >acquired anew by every generation.
> >         - Will Durant
> >
> >
> >
> >
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