[Vision2020] Fw: Iraq

Art Deco aka W. Fox deco@moscow.com
Mon, 5 Apr 2004 21:03:48 -0700


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Fellow Humans,

I'm afraid that I'm always stuck with asking the irritating questions, but here
goes:

Would as many people have been killed, maimed, tortured, burned, or suffered and
continue to suffer the loss of relatives, friends, jobs, the simple pleasures of
life, etc. if there had been no war and Saddam was still in power?

Is it possible, as disgusting as it may seem, that a strong dictatorship is
needed where ethnic and religious hate make peaceful co-existence improbable
without an iron hand?  Look what happened and is still happening in formerly
Yugoslavia after Tito.

How many people per day in Iraq were harmed by Saddam as compared to those
harmed  during the last year?

How will thousands of years of hate and dependence on unverifiable religious
dogma be erased or altered?  Will Iraq (or Afghanistan) become another Israel
vs. Arabs going on for who knows how long with huge amounts of extreme human
suffering?

America and the world with current American leadership is floundering in a mess
of their own creating.  Will a change of leadership help?  Is there a solution
at all?

I don't have the solution and I suspect no one really does, but needed knowledge
is missing at present to solve the problem.

Where do all go from here?  Please do not answer with more religious dogma -- 
that is what partially placed all in this horrendous situation!

Sorrowfully,

Wayne

Art Deco  (Wayne Fox)
deco@moscow.com


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tom Hansen
  To: Joan Opyr ; Vision2020 Moscow
  Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 8:39 PM
  Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq


  Greetings Visionaires -

  Although Mr. Finkbiner's suggestions are well intended, they are likely to
occur immediately following a same-sex marriage conducted by Douglas Wilson.

  Let's evaluate each of his three requirements in achieving a viable solution.

  "1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides stability
and the rule of law."

  And how is this to be achieved?  A government consisting of a coalition
representative of local religions?  Not likely since the Kurds, Shiites, and
Suunis having been warring with each other for over a thousand years.

  "2) Does not further inflame the region."

  Nope.  No warm fuzzy here, either.  See 1) above.  And

  "3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than flounder
from mistake to mistake."

  This has not been achieved since the Great Hate of the early 1940s.  I
certainly do not see any FDRs or Harry Trumans on the horizon.  As long as the
deck consists of Bushes, Cheneys, Quayles, Clintons, and Gores, we will just
have to play the cards we are dealt.

  It was a mistake getting into Iraq.  It is becoming a bigger mistake the
longer we remain there.  I can see us staying until June 30th (when the new
government is scheduled to take control), since we promised the people of Iraq
(more specificaly the Kurds) that timeline.

  Tom Hansen
  Moscow, Idaho


    -----Original Message-----
    From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
Behalf Of Joan Opyr
    Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 7:34 PM
    To: Vision2020 Moscow
    Subject: [Vision2020] Fw: Iraq


    Hi all,

    Mike Finkbiner is no longer active on 2020, but he reads the Digest and
asked me to forward this.

    Joan

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Mike Finkbiner
      Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 2:48 PM
      To: auntiestablishment@hotmail.com
      Subject: Iraq

      One of the saddest things I see about the Iraq situation is that people
are arguing about why we got into this mess instead of working on finding a
solution.

      Setting the administration's failures aside for a moment, I think we need
to work towards building a solution in Iraq that:

      1) Allows the Iraqi people to develop a government that provides stability
and the rule of law.

      2) Does not further inflame the region.

      3) Demonstrates the US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than
flounder from mistake to mistake.

      I don't know if the current administration is capable of making that
happen.  I'm afraid there might not be <anyone> who could make it happen, but if
we spend most of our energy arguing over the cause rather than working towards
the solution, we are just going to end up in a worse mess.

      The Bush administration has demonstrated an ugly level of dishonesty over
this whole affair, but what's worse, I'm afraid, is that they have demonstrated
a high level of ignorance and incompetance.

      Stupid and lazy people don't cause many problems, intelligent and active
people tend to solve problems, stupid and active people are capable of making a
real mess.

      But it's a mess we can't honorably walk away from so I hope we can
concentrate finding a solution that works.

      Bush deserves to get tossed out on his ear.  I hope Kerry can do that
without promising to abandon the Iraqi people.

      Mike

      Mike Finkbiner
      mike_l_f@hotmail.com

      Civilization is not something inborn or imperishable; it must be acquired
anew by every generation.
      - Will Durant




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style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; FONT: 10pt =
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bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Fellow Humans,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>I'm afraid that I'm always stuck with asking the =
irritating=20
questions, but here goes:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Would as many people have been killed, maimed, =
tortured,=20
burned, or suffered and continue to suffer the loss of relatives, =
friends, jobs,=20
the simple pleasures of life, etc. if there had been no war and Saddam =
was still=20
in power?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Is it possible, as disgusting as it may seem, that a =
strong=20
dictatorship is needed where ethnic and religious hate make peaceful=20
co-existence improbable without an iron hand?&nbsp; Look what happened =
and is=20
still happening in formerly Yugoslavia after Tito.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>How many people per day in Iraq were harmed by =
Saddam as=20
compared to those harmed&nbsp; during the last year?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>How&nbsp;will thousands of years of hate and =
dependence on=20
unverifiable religious dogma be erased or altered?&nbsp; Will Iraq (or=20
Afghanistan) become another Israel vs. Arabs going on for who knows how =
long=20
with huge amounts of extreme human suffering?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>America and the world with current American =
leadership is=20
floundering in a mess of their own creating.&nbsp; Will a change of =
leadership=20
help?&nbsp; Is there a solution at all?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV></FONT><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>I don't have the&nbsp;solution and I suspect no one =
really=20
does, but needed knowledge is missing at present to solve the=20
problem.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Where do all go from here?&nbsp; Please do not =
answer with=20
more religious dogma -- that is what partially&nbsp;placed all in this=20
horrendous situation!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Sorrowfully,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Wayne</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4>Art Deco&nbsp; (Wayne Fox)<BR><A=20
href=3D"mailto:deco@moscow.com">deco@moscow.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D4></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Dthansen@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:thansen@moscow.com">Tom =
Hansen</A>=20
  </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
  title=3Dauntiestablishment@hotmail.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:auntiestablishment@hotmail.com">Joan Opyr</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com =
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020=20
  Moscow</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 05, 2004 =
8:39=20
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] Fw: =
Iraq</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Greetings =
Visionaires=20
  -</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Although =
Mr.=20
  Finkbiner's suggestions are well intended, they are likely to occur=20
  immediately following a same-sex marriage conducted by Douglas=20
  Wilson.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Let's =
evaluate each of=20
  his three requirements in achieving a viable =
solution.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>"1) Allows =
the Iraqi=20
  people to develop a government that provides stability and the rule of =

  law."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>And how is =
this to be=20
  achieved?&nbsp; A government consisting of a coalition representative =
of local=20
  religions?&nbsp; Not likely since the Kurds, Shiites, and Suunis =
having been=20
  warring with each other for over a thousand years.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>"2) Does =
not further=20
  inflame the region."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Nope.&nbsp; =
No warm=20
  fuzzy here, either.&nbsp; See 1) above.&nbsp; And</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
  face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>"3) =
Demonstrates=20
  the&nbsp;US can carry out a reasonable plan, rather than flounder from =
mistake=20
  to mistake."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
  face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana><FONT =
face=3Dverdana>This=20
  has not been achieved since the Great Hate of the early 1940s.&nbsp; I =

  certainly do not see any FDRs or Harry Trumans on the horizon.&nbsp; =
As long=20
  as the deck consists of Bushes, Cheneys, Quayles, Clintons, and Gores, =
we will=20
  just have to play the cards we are dealt.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
  face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana><FONT =
face=3Dverdana>It=20
  was a mistake getting into Iraq.&nbsp; It is becoming a bigger mistake =
the=20
  longer we remain there.&nbsp; I can see us staying until June 30th =
(when the=20
  new government is scheduled to take control), since we promised the =
people of=20
  Iraq (more specificaly the Kurds) that =
timeline.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT=20
  face=3Dverdana></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana><FONT =
face=3Dverdana>Tom=20
  Hansen</FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
  <DIV><SPAN class=3D449562103-06042004><FONT face=3Dverdana>Moscow, =
Idaho</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV></FONT></SPAN>
  <BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
  style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
    <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT=20
    face=3DTahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
    vision2020-admin@moscow.com =
[mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]<B>On Behalf=20
    Of </B>Joan Opyr<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 05, 2004 7:34=20
    PM<BR><B>To:</B> Vision2020 Moscow<BR><B>Subject:</B> [Vision2020] =
Fw:=20
    Iraq<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
    <DIV>Hi all,</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Mike Finkbiner is no longer active on 2020, but he reads the =
Digest and=20
    asked me to forward this.</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <DIV>Joan</DIV>
    <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
    <BLOCKQUOTE=20
    style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV>
      <DIV=20
      style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt Arial; COLOR: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
      Mike Finkbiner</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 05, =
2004 2:48=20
      PM</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>To:</B>=20
      auntiestablishment@hotmail.com</DIV>
      <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt Arial"><B>Subject:</B> Iraq</DIV>
      <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>One of the saddest things I see about the Iraq =
situation=20
      is that people are arguing about why we got into this mess instead =
of=20
      working on finding a solution.<BR><BR>Setting the administration's =

      failures aside for a moment, I think we need to work towards =
building a=20
      solution in Iraq that:<BR><BR>1) Allows the Iraqi people to =
develop a=20
      government that provides stability and the rule of law.<BR><BR>2) =
Does not=20
      further inflame the region.<BR><BR>3) Demonstrates the&nbsp;US can =
carry=20
      out a reasonable plan, rather than flounder from mistake to=20
      mistake.<BR><BR>I don't know if the current administration is =
capable of=20
      making that happen.&nbsp; I'm afraid there might not be =
&lt;anyone&gt; who=20
      could make it happen, but if we spend most of our energy arguing =
over the=20
      cause rather than working towards the solution, we are just going =
to end=20
      up in a worse mess.<BR><BR>The Bush administration has =
demonstrated an=20
      ugly level of dishonesty over this whole affair, but what's worse, =
I'm=20
      afraid, is that they have demonstrated a high level of ignorance =
and=20
      incompetance.<BR><BR>Stupid and lazy people don't cause many =
problems,=20
      intelligent and active people tend to solve problems, stupid and =
active=20
      people are capable of making a real mess.<BR><BR>But it's a mess =
we can't=20
      honorably walk away from so I hope we can concentrate finding a =
solution=20
      that works.<BR><BR>Bush deserves to get tossed out on his =
ear.&nbsp; I=20
      hope Kerry can do that without promising to abandon the Iraqi=20
      people.<BR><BR>Mike<BR><BR>Mike=20
      Finkbiner<BR>mike_l_f@hotmail.com<BR><BR>Civilization is not =
something=20
      inborn or imperishable; it must be acquired anew by every =
generation.<BR>-=20
      Will Durant<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR clear=3Dall>
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