[Vision2020] Re: Schools and VA Hospitals

Dale Courtney dmcourtn@moscow.com
Mon, 8 Sep 2003 16:38:29 -0700


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I can provide you that, if it would help you!  :)
=20
Best,
Dale
=20


  _____ =20

From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] =
On
Behalf Of Sunil Ramalingam
Sent: Monday, 08 September, 2003 16:18
To: curley@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Schools and VA Hospitals



Rather than read these letters, I'm waiting for the graphs.

Sunil

>From: "Mike Curley"=20
>Reply-To: curley@turbonet.com=20
>To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Schools and VA Hospitals=20
>Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:46:43 -0700=20
>=20
>Oh, Jack, what puerile and spurious reasoning you've=20
>used this time. Let's look at the supposedly clear=20
>analogies you espouse. In the VA Hospital situation, Lad=20
>Hamilton assumes (apparently) that there is a larger=20
>system of (non-VA) hospitals available; that those=20
>hospitals are capable of absorbing the VA patients; that=20
>there is more adequate staff at those hospitals; that the=20
>doctors, nurses and other skilled staff are better at those=20
>hospitals; and that there would be administrative savings=20
>by getting the US government out of the hospital business.=20
>=20
>You claim that is analogous to the school situation.=20
>However, the private/parochial system is a small fraction=20
>of the size of the public school system; the=20
>private/parochial system is unable to absorb anything but=20
>a small fraction of public students; there is no evidence=20
>that public school teachers are less skilled than=20
>private/parochial teachers; there is no clear=20
>administrative savings (especially considering that the=20
>mandates and goals differ widely); AND, schools are=20
>funded and significantly controlled at the state and local=20
>level rather than by the Feds. There is also no wait for=20
>"treatment" and there are not two tiers of students.=20
>=20
>There is a separate issue regarding the number of public=20
>school teachers who are union members and the impact=20
>that would have if they were to suddenly become=20
>private/parochial school employees. Regardless, there=20
>simply is no reasonable analogy between VA Hospitals=20
>and public schools however you might wish there to be.=20
>I've always found your arguments to be based on reason=20
>and fact. I don't think this one has much of either.=20
>=20
>Mike Curley=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>On 7 Sep 03, at 15:16, John T. Wenders wrote:=20
>=20
>Date sent: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 15:16:52 -0700=20
>To: jwenders@uidaho.edu=20
>From: "John T. Wenders"=20
>Subject: Schools and VA Hospitals=20
>=20
> > Lewiston Tribune=20
> > Date: 08/22/2003=20
> > Section: Opinion=20
> > Page: 6A=20
> >=20
> > Don't close some VA hospitals -- close them all=20
> > Ladd Hamilton=20
> > Closing Veterans Administration hospitals is a lot like=20
> > closing military bases. No one in Congress wants to do it,=20
> > no matter how good the arguments for closure might be. The=20
> > VA is now asking Congress to let it close a number of=20
> > veterans' hospitals and some other services that it says are=20
> > no longer needed -- either because the aging veteran=20
> > populations are moving around or to accommodate a trend=20
> > toward outpatient care.=20
> > The VA has a typically bureaucratic name for the=20
> > process: Capital=20
> > Asset Realignment for Enhanced Services (CARES), but Sen.=20
> > Ron Wyden of Oregon calls it a job killer in his state.=20
> > Three of the proposed closures would occur there, one of=20
> > them in White City, a small town that would lose 400 jobs.=20
> > In an angry letter to the VA, Wyden said that in many=20
> > communities across the country the potential loss of=20
> > hospital care and beds is an issue ranking right up there=20
> > with the national economy: "You are talking about a huge=20
> > veteran population, and they basically have no place to=20
> > turn."=20
> > A deputy director of the American Legion has declared=20
> > that "we=20
> > can't see how closing a hospital can solve any problems when=20
> > we have 100,000 veterans standing in line waiting for=20
> > appointments."=20
> > It's true that closing a VA hospital won't solve any=20
> > problems. But=20
> > closing them all might. The trouble with the VA's "enhanced=20
> > services" proposal is that it does not go far enough. The=20
> > veterans would get better care, without excessive standing=20
> > in line, if the VA took itself out of the hospital business=20
> > and let the veterans go, at the VA's expense, to the same=20
> > hospitals that treat everybody else. The present system=20
> > provides two levels of care -- one for veterans whose only=20
> > option is a VA hospital and another for the general=20
> > population. In much of the country the general hospital is=20
> > better. VA hospitals are chronically short of staff and=20
> > often a dumping ground for marginally skilled physicians.=20
> > The veterans deserve better. America needs to support=20
> > its troops=20
> > not only when they are overseas but after they are mustered=20
> > out and facing the ills we all are heir to. -- L.H.=20
> >=20
> > -------------------------------=20
> >=20
> > A very amusing article. In making a case for privatizing=20
> > veterans health care, Hamilton also, by the same logic, and=20
> > inadvertently I'm sure, makes a case for privatizing the=20
> > government schools and going to school choice via vouchers.=20
> > Hamilton makes an excellent case for hospital vouchers when=20
> > he says:=20
> >=20
> > "The veterans would get better care, without excessive=20
> > standing in line, if the VA took itself out of the hospital=20
> > business and let the veterans go, at the VA's expense, to=20
> > the same hospitals that treat everybody else. The present=20
> > system provides two levels of care -- one for veterans whose=20
> > only option is a VA hospital and another for the general=20
> > population. In much of the country the general hospital is=20
> > better. VA hospitals are chronically short of staff and=20
> > often a dumping ground for marginally skilled physicians."=20
> >=20
> > The parallel between the Veteran's hospitals and the public=20
> > schools is obvious, but completely missed by both Hamilton=20
> > and the LMT. Given the LMT's continuing blind support for=20
> > more public school spending, and it's unrelenting bashing of=20
> > charter schools, home schooling, and vouchers, Recall that=20
> > LMT editorial writer Jim Fisher tried to blame the Ruby=20
> > Ridge disaster on the Idaho Legislature because it refused=20
> > to regulate home schooling, thereby making the state=20
> > attractive to home schoolers like Randy Weaver. In this=20
> > context, Hamilton's statement is absolutely amazing.=20
> >=20
> > With a few word changes, one could truthfully re-write his=20
> > passage:=20
> >=20
> > Don't close some Public Schools -- close them all=20
> >=20
> > "The students would get better care if the government took=20
> > itself out of the education business and let the students=20
> > go, at the government's expense, to the private schools that=20
> > treat others. The present system provides two levels of care=20
> > -- one for students whose only option is a government school=20
> > and another for those that go to private schools. In much of=20
> > the country the private school is better."=20
> >=20
> > But don't hold your breath waiting, the LMT's support for=20
> > government schools is one of secular religion, not logic.=20
> >=20
> > Jack=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > --=20
> > John T. Wenders=20
> > Professor of Economics, University of Idaho=20
> > Senior Fellow, The Commonwealth Foundation=20
> >=20
> > Mailing Address:=20
> > 2266 Westview Drive=20
> > Moscow, ID 83843=20
> >=20
> > Voice: 208/882-1831=20
> > Fax: 208/882-3696=20
> > Cell: 509/336-5811=20
> > Alpine, AZ: 928/339-4342=20
> >=20
> > www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders=20
> >=20
>=20
>=20
>_____________________________________________________=20
> List services made available by First Step Internet,=20
> serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.=20
> http://www.fsr.net=20
> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
>=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
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=AF=AF=AF=AF=20

  _____ =20

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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D500133823-08092003><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#800000 size=3D2>I can provide you that, if it would help =
you!&nbsp;=20
:)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT color=3D#800000><FONT size=3D2><FONT=20
face=3DArial>Best,</FONT><BR></FONT><FONT face=3D"Vladimir Script"=20
size=3D5>Dale</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
  <HR tabIndex=3D-1>
  <FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> vision2020-admin@moscow.com=20
  [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Sunil=20
  Ramalingam<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, 08 September, 2003 =
16:18<BR><B>To:</B>=20
  curley@turbonet.com; vision2020@moscow.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
[Vision2020]=20
  Re: Schools and VA Hospitals<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>Rather than read these letters, I'm waiting for the=20
  graphs.<BR><BR>Sunil</P></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "Mike Curley" <CURLEY@TURBONET.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Reply-To: curley@turbonet.com=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: vision2020@moscow.com=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Schools and VA Hospitals=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 16:46:43 -0700=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Oh, Jack, what puerile and spurious reasoning you've=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;used this time. Let's look at the supposedly clear=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;analogies you espouse. In the VA Hospital situation, =
Lad=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Hamilton assumes (apparently) that there is a larger=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;system of (non-VA) hospitals available; that those=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;hospitals are capable of absorbing the VA patients; =
that=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;there is more adequate staff at those hospitals; that =
the=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;doctors, nurses and other skilled staff are better at =
those=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;hospitals; and that there would be administrative =
savings=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;by getting the US government out of the hospital =
business.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;You claim that is analogous to the school situation.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;However, the private/parochial system is a small =
fraction=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;of the size of the public school system; the=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;private/parochial system is unable to absorb anything =
but=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;a small fraction of public students; there is no =
evidence=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;that public school teachers are less skilled than=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;private/parochial teachers; there is no clear=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;administrative savings (especially considering that the =

  <DIV></DIV>&gt;mandates and goals differ widely); AND, schools are=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;funded and significantly controlled at the state and =
local=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;level rather than by the Feds. There is also no wait =
for=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;"treatment" and there are not two tiers of students.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;There is a separate issue regarding the number of =
public=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;school teachers who are union members and the impact=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;that would have if they were to suddenly become=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;private/parochial school employees. Regardless, there=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;simply is no reasonable analogy between VA Hospitals=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;and public schools however you might wish there to be.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;I've always found your arguments to be based on reason=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;and fact. I don't think this one has much of either.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Mike Curley=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;On 7 Sep 03, at 15:16, John T. Wenders wrote:=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Date sent: Sun, 7 Sep 2003 15:16:52 -0700=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: jwenders@uidaho.edu=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: "John T. Wenders" <JWENDERS@UIDAHO.EDU>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Schools and VA Hospitals=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Lewiston Tribune=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Date: 08/22/2003=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Section: Opinion=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Page: 6A=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Don't close some VA hospitals -- close them all=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Ladd Hamilton=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Closing Veterans Administration hospitals is a =
lot like=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; closing military bases. No one in Congress wants =
to do=20
  it,=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; no matter how good the arguments for closure =
might be.=20
  The=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; VA is now asking Congress to let it close a =
number of=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; veterans' hospitals and some other services that =
it says=20
  are=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; no longer needed -- either because the aging =
veteran=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; populations are moving around or to accommodate a =
trend=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; toward outpatient care.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; The VA has a typically bureaucratic name for the=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; process: Capital=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Asset Realignment for Enhanced Services (CARES), =
but Sen.=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Ron Wyden of Oregon calls it a job killer in his =
state.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Three of the proposed closures would occur there, =
one of=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; them in White City, a small town that would lose =
400=20
  jobs.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; In an angry letter to the VA, Wyden said that in =
many=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; communities across the country the potential loss =
of=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; hospital care and beds is an issue ranking right =
up there=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; with the national economy: "You are talking about =
a huge=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; veteran population, and they basically have no =
place to=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; turn."=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; A deputy director of the American Legion has =
declared=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; that "we=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; can't see how closing a hospital can solve any =
problems=20
  when=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; we have 100,000 veterans standing in line waiting =
for=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; appointments."=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; It's true that closing a VA hospital won't solve =
any=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; problems. But=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; closing them all might. The trouble with the VA's =

  "enhanced=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; services" proposal is that it does not go far =
enough. The=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; veterans would get better care, without excessive =

  standing=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; in line, if the VA took itself out of the =
hospital=20
  business=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; and let the veterans go, at the VA's expense, to =
the same=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; hospitals that treat everybody else. The present =
system=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; provides two levels of care -- one for veterans =
whose=20
  only=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; option is a VA hospital and another for the =
general=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; population. In much of the country the general =
hospital=20
  is=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; better. VA hospitals are chronically short of =
staff and=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; often a dumping ground for marginally skilled =
physicians.=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; The veterans deserve better. America needs to =
support=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; its troops=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; not only when they are overseas but after they =
are=20
  mustered=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; out and facing the ills we all are heir to. -- =
L.H.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; -------------------------------=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; A very amusing article. In making a case for =
privatizing=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; veterans health care, Hamilton also, by the same =
logic,=20
  and=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; inadvertently I'm sure, makes a case for =
privatizing the=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; government schools and going to school choice via =

  vouchers.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Hamilton makes an excellent case for hospital =
vouchers=20
  when=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; he says:=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; "The veterans would get better care, without =
excessive=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; standing in line, if the VA took itself out of =
the=20
  hospital=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; business and let the veterans go, at the VA's =
expense, to=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the same hospitals that treat everybody else. The =
present=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; system provides two levels of care -- one for =
veterans=20
  whose=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; only option is a VA hospital and another for the =
general=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; population. In much of the country the general =
hospital=20
  is=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; better. VA hospitals are chronically short of =
staff and=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; often a dumping ground for marginally skilled=20
  physicians."=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; The parallel between the Veteran's hospitals and =
the=20
  public=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; schools is obvious, but completely missed by both =

  Hamilton=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; and the LMT. Given the LMT's continuing blind =
support for=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; more public school spending, and it's unrelenting =
bashing=20
  of=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; charter schools, home schooling, and vouchers, =
Recall=20
  that=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; LMT editorial writer Jim Fisher tried to blame =
the Ruby=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Ridge disaster on the Idaho Legislature because =
it=20
  refused=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; to regulate home schooling, thereby making the =
state=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; attractive to home schoolers like Randy Weaver. =
In this=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; context, Hamilton's statement is absolutely =
amazing.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; With a few word changes, one could truthfully =
re-write=20
  his=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; passage:=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Don't close some Public Schools -- close them all =

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; "The students would get better care if the =
government=20
  took=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; itself out of the education business and let the =
students=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; go, at the government's expense, to the private =
schools=20
  that=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; treat others. The present system provides two =
levels of=20
  care=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; -- one for students whose only option is a =
government=20
  school=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; and another for those that go to private schools. =
In much=20
  of=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; the country the private school is better."=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; But don't hold your breath waiting, the LMT's =
support for=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; government schools is one of secular religion, =
not logic.=20

  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Jack=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; --=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; John T. Wenders=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Professor of Economics, University of Idaho=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Senior Fellow, The Commonwealth Foundation=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Mailing Address:=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; 2266 Westview Drive=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Moscow, ID 83843=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Voice: 208/882-1831=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Fax: 208/882-3696=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Cell: 509/336-5811=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; Alpine, AZ: 928/339-4342=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt; www.uidaho.edu/~jwenders=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; &gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;_____________________________________________________=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; List services made available by First Step Internet,=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; http://www.fsr.net=20
  <DIV></DIV>&gt; mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
  =
<DIV></DIV>&gt;=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
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=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=20
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  <HR>
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  1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
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