[Vision2020] Jack Hill's comments
Jon Kimberling
jon@n-k-ins.com
Sun, 19 Oct 2003 21:43:42 -0700
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Bill- your initial email on this topic was sent out on September 2nd. =
Included in that email were the following statements: "the council is =
covering up the results of that impropriety" and "this City government =
is in need of an enema" and finally "I'm ready for election of some =
public-minded Council members". And then you and others question council =
members who are not regular participants in v2020????????
If there was an Olympic event for jumping to conclusions, you would have =
the gold medal in the bag. I find that often our greatest exercise of =
power is the judgmental attitude we have toward each other. The last =
point myself or any other council member is trying to make is what you =
stated. We do not presume to know your will. I want to hear the opinion =
that differs from mine because that helps me test my beliefs. There was =
an excellent email I believe by Mr. Westberg on this subject just this =
last week. But we do hope, and feel it is reasonable, that you do a =
little research before questioning our honesty and ethics not to mention =
our qualifications for the job. A cover-up. Come on. I believe we as a =
council are successful when we recognize the needs of others and set our =
minds to do what is just and fair.=20
I felt Gary Riedners editorial response did an excellent job of =
summarizing the challenge we have at the City. There is a need for open =
government balanced with the privacy rights of employees. I know many =
v2020 followers support revisions to the Patriot Act. I think it's a =
fair analogy that government employees have the right to some privacy as =
well.
I don't think there is much to add. Again, my point in questioning why =
you didn't have a follow-up to all this was that you won't pass up an =
opportunity to rail on the Council. If we listen and then go out of our =
way to do the right thing- is that not worth a mention? I guess not.
Your response, in my opinion, confirms everything I said. It's not about =
being upset or hurt. It's about raising the bar in our working =
relationship. Every City has problems and issues. The difference is that =
in some cities they can carry on a "healthy dialogue". We need that in =
Moscow no matter who is on the City Council.
Jon
----- Original Message -----=20
From: bill london=20
To: Jon Kimberling=20
Cc: Vision2020=20
Sent: Friday, October 17, 2003 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Jack Hill's comments
Jon Kimberling accuses me of having "anti-city" opinions when I =
express what I believed was a real and honest political disagreement =
with a policy or action of the Council and the city staff directly under =
their control. I am not "anti-city" (whatever that means). I am, =
however, against a paternalistic and anti-democratic view of the role of =
the citizen in this city. I still believe in the quaint notion that I =
can express my opinion and try to affect public policy if I disagree =
with it.
In this specific case, the Council had decided to give the city =
staff administrators a big fat pay hike, and include in that pay raise a =
delightful bonus of extra money for vacation time unused. (They also =
did not pass out much in the way of money to the workers who could have =
actually used the money, but that is a different part of the story). =
When it came time to report to the public how much the administrators =
were actually making for the year, the city (specifically City Attorney =
Randy Fife--who as an administrator had also received some of that =
vacation buy-back money) suggested that the Council not report that =
vacation money. =20
Idaho law notes that the public has a right to know the "gross =
salary" paid to public officials. To me, gross salary means total =
salary, as in total amount of money, as in including the buy-back =
vacation pay deal.
Incidently, there are plenty of public interest attorneys in Idaho =
(one was quoted in the Daily News article on the subject) who agree with =
that point that gross salary means gross salary and should be public =
information.
I still think Fife was wrong on that point. But, we will never =
really know since City Supervisor Reidner got all the administrators to =
agree to reveal their gross salaries (including the vacation buy-back). =
So, the issue which would have required a court case to decide, ended at =
that point.
Jon asks why I did not comment more at that point. Why? what =
would I have to say? The public interest was served. The full salary =
of the administrators was revealed. =20
Obviously, Jon was upset and his feelings were hurt by this =
process. I really do not understand why. This was a political issue, =
and was resolved through a political process. =20
Perhaps the difference between Jon and I on this issue is really a =
question of the role of the citizen in the political process. If the =
Council and city staff know best (as he seems to indicate), then the =
role of the citizen is to pay the taxes with a smile. I just can't =
quite follow along with that program.
BL
Jon Kimberling wrote:
I attended the Chamber Candidates Forum and had the opportunity to =
hear Jack and all the other candidates speak. My interpretation of =
Jack's comments were an attempt to reach out to the community. Yes- he =
was direct and it seems that his comments hit a nerve with certain =
members of the community. Having the perspective of a fellow councilman, =
I can tell you that I share his opinion that some v2020 contributors are =
quick to put the most negative spin they can on city council decisions. =
These anti-city opinions are often formed without ever contacting a city =
council or staff member, without reading reports and materials available =
from the city and with sole reliance on what is written in the paper.=20
I could site numerous examples but will limit myself to one. Bill =
London, using someone else's words, recently created "a tempest in a =
teapot" about the city decision not to disclose certain information =
about employee vacations. The criticism was leveled at the council when =
it wasn't even a council decision. City Supervisor Gary Riedner, in =
response to this, promptly got permission from the affected staff to =
disclose the information. An editorial response appeared in the paper. =
Anyone, including Bill, who would have asked a few questions would have =
learned that in the years Randy Fife has been the City Attorney he has =
honored about 99% of the requests that he receives for information, that =
he was misquoted in the paper about "trade secrets", that both the City =
of Lewiston and Latah County gave the Daily News the same response, that =
is that the Idaho Public Records Law protects certain information and =
they would not disclose it. Bill's response to this on v2020 after the =
City set the record straight- not one word. Where is the balance?
If I have a concern, I like to go directly to the person involved =
and ask them the basis for their opinion. I have contacted several v2020 =
subscribers and made this personal request of them. I appreciate the =
people who have taken the time to contact me and ask questions and just =
as important- let me know their opinion. I believe this method of =
communiciation is a more effective way to have a healthy dialogue then =
immediately blasting the person you have already concluded is incapable =
of making a decision you can agree with.=20
I share Jack's frustration because our critics(whether they are on =
v2020, local editorial writers or from any other source) often don't =
offer any suggestion as to what decision they would have had us make. If =
you have the will to help, you have the right to criticize- was that =
quote from Lincoln?
I respect Jack Hill for a number of reasons. One is his willingness =
to speak up as he did Wednesday. However, that is no basis for =
concluding that Jack is not open to hearing your opinion. He and I have =
had countless discussions about various City issues and he always looks =
at both sides, even when community opinion and his differ.
My hope is that we will all support the newly elected council, that =
we will agree to disagree agreeably and that community members who have =
issues will hold themselves to the same standard they hold their City =
Council.=20
When it comes to the City of Moscow, I don't ever want to agree with =
one of Yogi Berra's quotes- the future ain't what it used to be.
Jon Kimberling
Current Moscow City Councilman
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Bill- your initial email on this topic =
was sent out=20
on September 2nd. Included in that email were the following statements: =
"the=20
council is <EM>covering up</EM> the results of that =
<EM>impropriety</EM>" and=20
"this City government is in need of an enema" and finally "I'm ready for =
election of some public-minded Council members". And then you and others =
question council members who are not regular participants in=20
v2020????????</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If there was an Olympic event for =
jumping to=20
conclusions, you would have the gold medal in the bag. I find that often =
our=20
greatest exercise of power is the judgmental attitude we have toward =
each other.=20
The last point myself or any other council member is trying to make is =
what you=20
stated. We do not presume to know your will. I want to hear the opinion =
that=20
differs from mine because that helps me test my beliefs. There was an =
excellent=20
email I believe by Mr. Westberg on this subject just this last week. But =
we do=20
hope, and feel it is reasonable, that you do a little =
research before=20
questioning our honesty and ethics not to mention our qualifications for =
the=20
job. A cover-up. Come on. I believe we as a council are successful when =
we=20
recognize the needs of others and set our minds to do what is just and =
fair.=20
</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I felt Gary Riedners editorial response =
did an=20
excellent job of summarizing the challenge we have at the City. There is =
a need=20
for open government balanced with the privacy rights of employees. I =
know many=20
v2020 followers support revisions to the Patriot Act. I think it's =
a fair=20
analogy that government employees have the right to some privacy as=20
well.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I don't think there is much to add. =
Again, my point=20
in questioning why you didn't have a follow-up to all this was that you =
won't=20
pass up an opportunity to rail on the Council. If we listen and =
then go out=20
of our way to do the right thing- is that not worth a mention? I =
guess=20
not.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Your response, in my opinion, confirms =
everything I=20
said. It's not about being upset or hurt. It's about raising the bar in =
our=20
working relationship. Every City has problems and issues. The difference =
is that=20
in some cities they can carry on a "healthy dialogue". We need that in =
Moscow no=20
matter who is on the City Council.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jon</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dlondon@moscow.com href=3D"mailto:london@moscow.com">bill =
london</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=3Djon@n-k-ins.com=20
href=3D"mailto:jon@n-k-ins.com">Jon Kimberling</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Cc:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">Vision2020</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Friday, October 17, 2003 =
8:06=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] Jack =
Hill's=20
comments</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><BR> Jon Kimberling accuses me of =
having=20
"anti-city" opinions when I express what I believed was a real and =
honest=20
political disagreement with a policy or action of the Council and the =
city=20
staff directly under their control. I am not "anti-city" =
(whatever that=20
means). I am, however, against a paternalistic and =
anti-democratic view=20
of the role of the citizen in this city. I still believe in the =
quaint=20
notion that I can express my opinion and try to affect public policy =
if I=20
disagree with it.<BR> In this specific case, the =
Council had=20
decided to give the city staff administrators a big fat pay hike, and =
include=20
in that pay raise a delightful bonus of extra money for vacation time=20
unused. (They also did not pass out much in the way of money to =
the=20
workers who could have actually used the money, but that is a =
different part=20
of the story). When it came time to report to the public how =
much the=20
administrators were actually making for the year, the city =
(specifically City=20
Attorney Randy Fife--who as an administrator had also received some of =
that=20
vacation buy-back money) suggested that the Council not report that =
vacation=20
money. <BR> Idaho law notes that the =
public has=20
a right to know the "gross salary" paid to public officials. To =
me,=20
gross salary means total salary, as in total amount of money, as in =
including=20
the buy-back vacation pay deal.<BR> Incidently, =
there are=20
plenty of public interest attorneys in Idaho (one was quoted in the =
Daily News=20
article on the subject) who agree with that point that gross salary =
means=20
gross salary and should be public information.<BR> I =
still=20
think Fife was wrong on that point. But, we will never really =
know since=20
City Supervisor Reidner got all the administrators to agree to reveal =
their=20
gross salaries (including the vacation buy-back). So, the issue =
which=20
would have required a court case to decide, ended at that=20
point.<BR> Jon asks why I did not comment more at =
that=20
point. Why? what would I have to say? The public interest =
was=20
served. The full salary of the administrators was =
revealed. =20
<BR> Obviously, Jon was upset and his feelings were =
hurt by=20
this process. I really do not understand why. This was a =
political=20
issue, and was resolved through a political process. =20
<BR> Perhaps the difference between Jon and I on =
this issue=20
is really a question of the role of the citizen in the political=20
process. If the Council and city staff know best (as he seems to =
indicate), then the role of the citizen is to pay the taxes with a=20
smile. I just can't quite follow along with that=20
program.<BR>BL<BR><BR><BR>Jon Kimberling wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=3Dmid02f501c39509$bb537900$0da8a8c0@JON =
type=3D"cite">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2800.1226" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I attended the Chamber Candidates =
Forum and had=20
the opportunity to hear Jack and all the other candidates speak. My=20
interpretation of Jack's comments were an attempt to reach out to =
the=20
community. Yes- he was direct and it seems that his comments hit a =
nerve=20
with certain members of the community. Having the perspective of a =
fellow=20
councilman, I can tell you that I share his opinion that some v2020=20
contributors are quick to put the most negative spin they can on =
city=20
council decisions. These anti-city opinions are often formed without =
ever=20
contacting a city council or staff member, without reading reports =
and=20
materials available from the city and with sole reliance on what is =
written=20
in the paper. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I could site numerous examples but =
will limit=20
myself to one. Bill London, using someone else's words, recently =
created "a=20
tempest in a teapot" about the city decision not to disclose certain =
information about employee vacations. The criticism was leveled at =
the=20
council when it wasn't even a council decision. City Supervisor Gary =
Riedner, in response to this, promptly got permission from the =
affected=20
staff to disclose the information. An editorial response appeared in =
the=20
paper. Anyone, including Bill, who would have asked a few questions =
would=20
have learned that in the years Randy Fife has been the City Attorney =
he has=20
honored about 99% of the requests that he receives for information, =
that he=20
was misquoted in the paper about "trade secrets", that both the City =
of=20
Lewiston and Latah County gave the Daily News the same response, =
that is=20
that the Idaho Public Records Law protects certain information and =
they=20
would not disclose it. Bill's response to this on v2020 after the =
City set=20
the record straight- not one word. Where is the=20
balance?<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>If I have a concern, I like to go =
directly to=20
the person involved and ask them the basis for their opinion. I have =
contacted several v2020 subscribers and made this personal request =
of them.=20
I appreciate the people who have taken the time to contact me and =
ask=20
questions and just as important- let me know their opinion. I =
believe this=20
method of communiciation is a more effective way to have a =
healthy=20
dialogue then immediately blasting the person you have already =
concluded is=20
incapable of making a decision you can agree with. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I share Jack's frustration because =
our=20
critics(whether they are on v2020, local editorial writers or =
from any=20
other source) often don't offer any suggestion as to =
what decision=20
they would have had us make. If you have the will to help, you have =
the=20
right to criticize- was that quote from Lincoln?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><FONT size=3D+0>I respect =
Jack Hill for a=20
number of reasons. One is his willingness to speak up as he did =
Wednesday.=20
However, that is no basis for concluding that Jack is not open to=20
hearing your opinion. He and I have had countless =
discussions=20
about various City issues and he always looks at both sides, even =
when=20
community opinion and his differ.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>My hope is that we will all support =
the newly=20
elected council, that we will agree to disagree agreeably and that =
community=20
members who have issues will hold themselves to the same =
standard they=20
hold their City Council. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>When it comes to the City of =
Moscow,=20
I don't ever want to agree with one of Yogi Berra's =
quotes- the=20
future ain't what it used to be.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Jon Kimberling</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Current Moscow City=20
Councilman</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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