[Vision2020] Idaho public school makes national news
Donovan Arnold
donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Tue, 27 May 2003 23:23:28 -0700
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<P>Dale,</P>
<P>I think you misunderstood me. I was not equating you to a racist. I was equating your ideas as a segregationist. If you knew your history you would know that Strom Thurmond ran for President in 1948 on the "States Rights Party" on the platform of segregation. He made the same arguments you and numerous others in the Southern states he captured in the election on keeping public schools segregated. Some were exactly the same words you used.</P></DIV>
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<P>"Segregation" is the word here, not racism. You are for the supposed "right" that parents have the right to choose to keep their children from another person or "child" on the basis of a physical aspect of that other child that in which that child has no control over under the guise that they are somehow "different" from "their child" in a manner that effects their child's educational achievement. </P>
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<P>That's all fine and dandy, if you want to teach your child that it isn't their fault they can't learn it is because there is someone of another gender in the room, that is fine. I hope they don't carry that into the work place and good luck getting a job. </P>
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<P>However, the problem I have with segregation is when it comes at the "expense" of a child or persons rights. When you segregate the boys from the girls or whoever from whoever for whatever reason you create a gap in the two systems and everyone is not treated equally. This is fine in a private system, but it should not be public policy. And here we get deep:</P>
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<P>The entire reason that governments exist is for purpose of making things "better" for everyone. If a government makes things worse for people in it then out of it, they leave that government. This makes the government less effective and prevents it from performing its three major functions of maintaining social order, providing services, and prevention of foreign invasion.</P>
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<P>Now unless you believe that public chaos, no public services, and foreign invasion is a good idea, I suggest you support public and government policy that makes everyone better off. Every single government that fell, fell because it alienated or mistreated one or more groups of people, from the Pharaohs of Egypt to the Dictator of Iraq. The greater the injustice, the quicker the fall and harder the fall.</P>
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<P>Inequalities always will exist in two separate systems, that will always be the case, and always had been. </P>
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<P>Now to comment on your comments below. </P>
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<P>Dale writes:</P>
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<P>"It's interesting that when I stand up for parental choice in education, I'm </P>
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<P>>equated with as a racist. Have we really fallen to such a place in the </P>
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<P>>United States where parental choice is likened to a racist choice? How sad."</P>
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<P>No, as I explained above, I am equating your choice to support "segregation" in schools to another "segregationist" that was using your arguments for segregation. I don't think nor did I mean for you to draw that conclusion about my argument, nor do I see how you could.</P>
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<P>Dale writes:</P>
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<P>"Funny how you support *my* tax dollars going to educate children in a system </P>
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<P>>that *you* agree with. But you wouldn't support *your* tax dollars going to </P>
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<P>>support a system that *I* agree with. That's mighty tolerant and </P>
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<P>>broad-minded of you."</P>
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<P>Nice try. That is a false argument. Someone could make that same argument that wanted to teach children that the world is flat. You are not addressing my argument only the wording of the statement.</P>
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<P>Dale wrote:</P>
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<P>"Another mindless, egalitarian argument. If I want to educate my children </P>
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<P>>only around one-armed Hittites, I have the right to. The choice may be a </P>
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<P>>poor one; but since I last checked, we still live in a free country where </P>
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<P>>people have the right to make choices -- even poor ones."</P>
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<P>Again, false argument. Here is another example of the argument you just made in another form: If I want to shoot you I can, last time I checked it is a free country, my bullet, my gun, my finger. I have the right to make my own choices--even poor ones." </P>
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<P>Your rights do have limits. They end where another's began. If you want to keep your children away from, women, boys, blacks, asians, the disabled or whatever, you can, just not at expense of the rights of the child you are keeping them from. If the resources used to meet your segragationial needs come from the resources previously available for that child you are violating that childs right. </P>
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<P>Dale writes:</P>
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<P>"It's the *parent's* decision, not yours for them; not mine for them. I may </P>
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<P>>disagree with how they choose to educate their children -- they may even </P>
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<P>>choose to put them in the VoTech government school system; but they have the </P>
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<P>>right to educate their children as they think is best for them. If you think </P>
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<P>>having your kids in mixed-gender school is important, then have at it! But </P>
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<P>>don't impose your prejudices on the rest of the people who may disagree with </P>
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<P>>you."</P>
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<P>Again, false argument: I am not attacking the right of the parent(s) to choose for their own child. I am against a parent having legal authority to cheat another child out of an equal opportunity education for the benefit of their child using public tax dollars to do so. Putting them in a private school does not take those resources away, then it is fine.</P>
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<P>I wrote: "</P>
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<P>This is the same argument made for NOT desegregating public schools on the </P>
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<P>> > basis of race. Parents were strongly opposed to the idea of having their </P>
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<P>> > children in the same classroom as a Black person." </P>
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<P>> Dale Wrote in response:</P>
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<P>"Not *all* parents were racist; but nice try."</P>
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<P>If you reread my statement you will see Dale is creating a strawman false argument here. I "NEVER" said, or implied in anyway that all parents were racist then or now, I did not imply even 50% or even 25% were. I simply said that "parents", implying more then one "parent", used these same false arguments to support their claims for segregation of the school system in the southern states. Dale, you also forgot to respond to want I said, which is use an argument that the segregationists did not use. I notice that you have not or cannot do this. All you have done is try to create an argument I didn't make and then attack it. This is not constructive debate but only a red herring around the true argument you can't defend, nor deny was used and failed during the 1950's and 1960's to justify the argument for another form of segregation.</P>
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<P>Dale Wrote:</P>
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<P>I'm a economic Libertarian; I'm against government education and </P>
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<P>>indoctrination, I wouldn't worry about making that "right" compatible to </P>
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<P>>your standards. That's the parent's choice and responsibility; but I'm sure </P>
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<P>>every parent in Moscow feels safer knowing that you are looking over their </P>
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<P>>shoulders, keeping your best interests on their children.</P>
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<P>I benefit in no way from defending increased funding for education or equal opportunity for every child. As a matter of fact, I am hindered by it because I pay for the increases. But I am smart enough to know that society is better off educating their children. Nor will I sink to the level that some people do (I do not mean you Dale) of making excuses not to fund and support a system of education that others paid into so I could have a better life. This is incredibly selfish.</P>
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<P>While I am not the best person to design an educational system, I know they are better off now under my idea of increased funding and support then yours Dale of stopping funding altogether under your (what you think anyway but is not) definition of being an "economical Libertarian". I do indeed do some work for parents in Moscow, about 300 of them on behave of their 450 children and they are happy that I help out.</P>
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<P>Thanks Dale for this conversation. But please, keep the arguments logical and attack the arguments I make not the ones you make up for me in a strawman argument or at least no more ad hominid arguments.</P>
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<P>Donovan J Arnold</P>
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<P>>From: "Dale Courtney" <DALE@COURTNEYS.US></P>
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<DIV></DIV>>To: <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
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<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Idaho public school makes national news
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<DIV></DIV>>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 20:19:48 -0700
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<DIV></DIV>>Donovan writes:
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<DIV></DIV>> > Dale Courtney predictably asked, as Strom Thurmond had once asked:
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<DIV></DIV>> > "If *parents* wanted to have their children in such an environment, would
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<DIV></DIV>> > you support the parents in their choices for their children?"
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<DIV></DIV>> > I will answer this in four parts to make sure he understands.
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<DIV></DIV>> > 1) "Would I support a parent's right to choose to have their children go
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<DIV></DIV>>to
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<DIV></DIV>> > a school segregated by race, disability, religion or Gender, on MY TAX
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<DIV></DIV>> > DOLLARS"? No, I would not. If I am going to pay for their child to go to
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<DIV></DIV>> > school I would want to make sure it was a just school that gave each child
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<DIV></DIV>>a
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<DIV></DIV>> > fair shake in every subject regardless of these factors.
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<DIV></DIV>> > This is the same argument made for NOT desegregating public schools on the
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<DIV></DIV>> > basis of race. Parents were strongly opposed to the idea of having their
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<DIV></DIV>> > children in the same classroom as a Black person.
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<DIV></DIV>>Not *all* parents were racist; but nice try.
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<DIV></DIV>> > This was a decision that
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<DIV></DIV>> > they thought was best for their children. Would you support desegregation,
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<DIV></DIV>> > or segregation Dale? Try supporting gender segregation without making the
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<DIV></DIV>> > ones used 50 years ago.
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<DIV></DIV>> > Decisions for children made by parents are sometimes bad ones (does not
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<DIV></DIV>>mean
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<DIV></DIV>> > that there is ill intent) it just happens.
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<DIV></DIV>> > If the school tells them their
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<DIV></DIV>> > child is better off, who would not want them better off.
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<DIV></DIV>>Who is "the school"? The educational elite? Those with the Ed.D. degree?
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<DIV></DIV>> > Finally, Dale, I will ask you the same question:
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<DIV></DIV>> > "Would you support the parents decision that wanted their child to attend
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<DIV></DIV>> > classes of mixed gender to develop those skills in this same school
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<DIV></DIV>> > district?
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<DIV></DIV>>It's the *parent's* decision, not yours for them; not mine for them. I may
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<DIV></DIV>>disagree with how they choose to educate their children -- they may even
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<DIV></DIV>>choose to put them in the VoTech government school system; but they have the
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<DIV></DIV>>right to educate their children as they think is best for them. If you think
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<DIV></DIV>>having your kids in mixed-gender school is important, then have at it! But
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<DIV></DIV>>don't impose your prejudices on the rest of the people who may disagree with
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<DIV></DIV>>you.
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<DIV></DIV>> > And if so, how would you make that right compatible in an
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<DIV></DIV>> > environment where classes were segregated?"
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<DIV></DIV>>I'm a economic Libertarian; I'm against government education and
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<DIV></DIV>>indoctrination, I wouldn't worry about making that "right" compatible to
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<DIV></DIV>>your standards. That's the parent's choice and responsibility; but I'm sure
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<DIV></DIV>>every parent in Moscow feels safer knowing that you are looking over their
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<DIV></DIV>>shoulders, keeping your best interests on their children.
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<DIV></DIV>>Best,
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<DIV></DIV>>Dale Courtney
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<DIV></DIV>>Moscow, Idaho
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<DIV></DIV>>_____________________________________________________
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<DIV></DIV>> http://www.fsr.net
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<DIV></DIV>> mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com
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