[Vision2020] News Article, Mental Illness, Fixation of Belief Discussion
Art Deco
deco@moscow.com
Thu, 22 May 2003 19:16:19 -0700
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Mr. Jones:
Instead of pounding the table and using words far from their usual =
meaning why don't you explain and illustrate circumstances when =
statement of the form A and not A, where A means exactly the same in =
both occurrences, is true? Or equivalently when an argument with true =
premises but a false conclusion is a valid argument?
Using logic when it suits your beliefs, but rejecting it when it =
threatens them is not only puerile and hypocritical, but illustrates =
quite convincingly my point about the deeply religious being mentally =
unhealthy. Thank you for your confirmation for a widely held belief =
among those who treat the delusional.
Wayne Fox
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Doug Jones=20
To: 'Vision 20/20'=20
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 5:56 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] News Article, Mental Illness, Fixation of =
Belief Discussion
Wayne Fox again:
=20
The statements in religious creeds are knowledge claims and subject to =
the same tests and criticisms that other knowledge claims are. Internal =
logical consistency is the most basic of those tests.
=20
I'm more than willing to let this thread die (and I have answered =
Wayne's "dilemma" in at least five different ways), but I still find it =
humorous that Wayne is so quick to see all others as rabidly religious =
and fantasizing, but refuses to give us a reason for believing that =
Reason is the supreme authority, even when his own relativism about =
logic undermines it. I have never seen anyone as rabid in refusing even =
to consider challenges to his god. Certainly none of the religious =
people of any faith that I know act that narrowly and rabidly. Wayne's =
continuing appeal to Reason as a neutral arbiter is like a Muslim =
insisting that the Koran "is the most basic test" of truth of all other =
faiths. When you ask Wayne why, he just cites his Koran again. Not very =
enlightening or profound. Just rabid. And yet he's the expert on mental =
illness. Very odd and unreflective, this secular fundamentalism. =20
=20
No one ever asked him to believe contradictions, just to provide an =
argument for why his particular god should unquestioningly rule the =
others. Wayne just keeps pounding the table that his god is god. =
Question authority, I say. All of them.=20
=20
Doug Jones
=20
=20
=20
=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>Mr. Jones:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>Instead of pounding the table =
and using=20
words far from their usual meaning why don't you explain and illustrate=20
circumstances when statement of the form A and not A, where A means =
exactly=20
the same in both occurrences, is true? Or equivalently when an =
argument=20
with true premises but a false conclusion is a valid =
argument?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>Using logic when it suits your =
beliefs,=20
but rejecting it when it threatens them is not only puerile and =
hypocritical,=20
but illustrates quite convincingly my point about the deeply religious =
being=20
mentally unhealthy. Thank you for your confirmation for a widely =
held=20
belief among those who treat the delusional.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2>Wayne Fox</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dcredenda@moscow.com =
href=3D"mailto:credenda@moscow.com">Doug Jones</A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">'Vision 20/20'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 22, 2003 =
5:56=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [Vision2020] News =
Article,=20
Mental Illness, Fixation of Belief Discussion</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"OrigGarmnd BT" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'OrigGarmnd =
BT'">Wayne Fox=20
again:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"OrigGarmnd BT" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'OrigGarmnd =
BT'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<DIV=20
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medium none; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: blue =
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<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Arial Narrow" size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow'">The statements =
in=20
religious creeds are knowledge claims and subject to the same tests =
and=20
criticisms that other knowledge claims are. Internal logical =
consistency=20
is the most basic of those tests<FONT color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
black">.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
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medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">I=92m more than willing to =
let this=20
thread die (and I have answered Wayne=92s =93dilemma=94 in at least =
five different=20
ways), but I still find it humorous that Wayne is so quick to see =
all others=20
as rabidly religious and fantasizing, but refuses to give us a =
reason for=20
believing that Reason is the supreme authority, even when his own =
relativism=20
about logic undermines it. I have never seen anyone as rabid in =
refusing=20
even to consider challenges to his god. Certainly none of the =
religious=20
people of any faith that I know act that narrowly and rabidly.=20
</SPAN></FONT><st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
black">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City><FONT=20
color=3Dblack><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black">=92s continuing appeal to =
Reason as a=20
neutral arbiter is like a Muslim insisting that the Koran =93is the =
most basic=20
test=94 of truth of all other faiths. When you ask=20
</SPAN></FONT><st1:City><st1:place><FONT color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
black">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City><FONT=20
color=3Dblack><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black"> why, he just cites his =
Koran again.=20
Not very enlightening or profound. Just rabid. And yet he=92s the =
expert on=20
mental illness. Very odd and unreflective, this secular =
fundamentalism.=20
<SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> </SPAN><o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: =
black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">No one ever asked him to =
believe=20
contradictions, just to provide an argument for why his particular =
god=20
should unquestioningly rule the others. <SPAN=20
style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> </SPAN></SPAN></FONT><st1:City><st1:place><FONT=20
color=3Dblack><SPAN=20
style=3D"COLOR: =
black">Wayne</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City><FONT=20
color=3Dblack><SPAN style=3D"COLOR: black"> just keeps pounding the =
table that=20
his god is god. <SPAN style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes"> </SPAN>Question=20
authority, I say. All of them. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: =
black"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black">Doug=20
Jones<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
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size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'OrigGarmnd =
BT'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"OrigGarmnd BT" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'OrigGarmnd =
BT'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"OrigGarmnd BT" color=3Dblack =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: 'OrigGarmnd =
BT'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQ=
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