[Vision2020] News Article, Mental Illness, Fixation of Belief Discussion

[Ted Moffett]

Mr. Potter et. al.

You mischaracterize the debate between Mr. Fox and Mr. Jones and others by 
misstating the statements of people involved in the debate.

I do not recall Mr. Fox ever stating we should try to determine the "logical 
necessity of every action decision and belief."  If he did state this, 
please find the quote and include it in your statement.

Mr. Fox has insisted on empirical evidence and logical argument for central 
beliefs that people use to structure their entire belief system, e.g. 
religion, a reasonable enough expectation.  And he has pointed out that 
actually his critics do use evidence and logic when it suits their purposes. 
  It is when the facts or logic contradict their point of view that they 
negate the epistemological relevance of certain kinds of logic or evidence.

Let's examine your concept of faith, which you started with.  Every day you 
rely on numerous technologies that have been developed and tested with the 
methods of empirical evidence and logic, the same methods that you seem to 
call into question in terms of their relevance to living.  Your car starts 
with a battery that supplies electricity to get you back to work to finish 
your job, the traffic light changes on a fixed schedule that manages traffic 
to avoid accidents, your computer works with superb application of 
mathematics and logic to send your vision2020 post, doctors await at Gritman 
with astonishing technologies to save your life if you do choke on your 
dinner or have a stroke.

All of these events in your life are not determined by faith, they are 
technological and social systems developed with evidence and logic.  They 
operate according to principles discovered by human beings in applying 
evidence and logic.  You can say we have discovered God's laws if you wish, 
but to deny these laws operate in predictable ways that make sense based on 
evidence and logic, is to deny the expectations all of us have every day 
that these technologies will work as we expect them to based on the work of 
the scientists and engineers who developed them.  It appears your life is 
very much linked with a life or death reliance on evidence and logic, not 
faith!

Of course all variables are not controlled:  everyone "crosses their 
fingers" or invokes some sort of "higher power," even skeptics like yours 
truly.  And no one I know, including Wayne Fox, has ever said everything in 
life must be "logical," unless indeed they are, if not "mentally ill," 
absolutely bored to death.  Sheesh!

You also offer a definition of mental illness that is rather narrow.  Safety 
to oneself or others is only one way of defining mental illness.  There have 
been famous millionaires who locked themselves in bacteria free rooms and 
lived in paranoia about "bugs" for years without risking their own safety, 
or anyone else's safety, but they were regarded by nearly everyone as 
nuts... or you pick the politically correct word for this!  However, these 
sorts of "foolish" beliefs, if widely followed, do have negative 
consequences for society.  Likewise with some religious beliefs.

Mr. Fox's  suggestion that certain religious beliefs are an expression of a 
state of mental illness akin to a full grown adult believing in a literal 
factual Santa Claus, is a reasonable suggestion that requires a reasonable 
response, which I am not sure anyone on this list has yet supplied!

In trying to suggest to Mr. Fox that he adopt a more tolerant view of other 
belief systems,
you state that we are not "hive animals" controlled by a "queen" or 
"master."  This statement actually bolsters what Mr. Fox is saying, because 
many religious communities that adopt some of the beliefs Mr. Fox is 
suggesting are "mentally ill," are indeed ruled by a "master" who seeks to 
conform everyone's thinking to one set of beliefs in a "hive."  I applaud 
your metaphor!

Mr. Fox is not, if I have read him correctly, trying to impose any other 
view than the one applying evidence and logic to important beliefs.  He is 
merely saying, if I may surmise his intentions, that those religious leaders 
who do act as "masters" trying to create a "hive" are not above having their 
beliefs scrutinized by the standards of evidence and logic when they try to 
control the minds of their flock.

You can throw out standards of evidence and logic if you wish, or you can 
accept some standards of evidence and logic and reject others.   But then 
when your car won't start and you can't get to work, when the traffic light 
fails and causes an accident, when your computer won't work and you lose 
your document, when your children get sick and need a doctor, will you rely 
on faith alone to help these problems, or seek trained professionals who 
have developed their skills with the tools of evidence and logic?

If you are Christian Scientist, and you children get sick, you might not 
seek a professional doctor but rely only on "spiritual" healing.  And this 
example demonstrates how these "religious" beliefs that Mr. Fox is 
scrutinizing with evidence and logic are not so innocent if the consequences 
of the beliefs are traced throughout the social/political/economic system.  
I won't labor this point beyond this one example of children being denied 
medical care based on "religious" grounds.

I do not think the discussion you wish to silence here is as you describe:
"...beating your head against the wall in these futile arguments..."
Doug Jones and Wayne Fox may not change each others minds, but there are 
others reading this debate who may be influenced to think for themselves, 
rather than as a member of the "hive," whatever hive is seeking to impose 
it's will upon them!

To quote Thomas Jefferson: "Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less 
remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is 
wrong."

Ted

>From: "George Potter" <PotterG@scsc.k12.in.us>
>To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] News Article, Mental Illness, Fixation ofBelief 
>Discussion
>Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 15:07:33 -0500
>
>I agree with Mr. Engerbretson.  We all live by faith.  I leave work on my 
>desk today because I have faith that I will be here tomorrow to finish it.  
>I have faith that I won't be hit by a drunk driver, choke to death on my 
>dinner, have a massive stroke mowing the lawn, have to take my children to 
>the hospital, inherit a million dollars, or that a variety of other things 
>won't happen to interfere with my return to work tomorrow.  THat is faith.  
>Hope for things not seen, that cannot be guaranteed.
>
>Trying to determine the logical necessity of every action, decision, 
>belief, as Mr. Fox seems to want us to do would be considered as much a 
>sign of mental illness as maintaining any of the religious beliefs he 
>considers to be a similar sign.  We all live by our own personal guidelines 
>and belief systems.  It is when we take those guidelines to their utter 
>extreme, and by following them interfere with our safety or the safety of 
>others that we enter the realm of irrationality that can be classified as 
>mental illness.
>
>Mr Fox, your belief system of life, the universe and everything is 
>different than that of Mr Jones, Mr. Wilson, myself, and many other people. 
>  It is even different in some aspects than the belief systems of other 
>people who claim to believe in the same basic ideals that you do.  You see, 
>that is part of being human.  We are not hive animals, whose beliefs and 
>drives and actions are determined out of our control by some "queen"  or 
>"master."  Civilization is the ability to live with people of different 
>beliefs in relative peace.
>
>The two of you (Mr. Fox and Mr. Jones), and the rest of us that have been 
>dragged into this argument are not going to convert each other.  At some 
>point (a point at which some of us appear to be close to) beating your head 
>against the wall in these futile arguments is also a sign (in my mind) of 
>mental illness.  Agree to disagree, agree to stop nitpicking, and agree to 
>just be nice to each other, and give it a break already.
>
>George Potter
>
>
>
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