[Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio

John Moss johnmoss@moscow.com
Thu, 15 May 2003 17:27:37 -0700


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> "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics"  =20

Yes, and reasearch has shown that 91.75% of statistics are made up on =
the spot.

Cheers,

John
  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Donovan Arnold=20
  To: dkaag@turbonet.com ; vision2020@moscow.com=20
  Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 5:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio


  Don,

  You are very correct on that one. UI's Student/Teacher ratio is like =
10:1. I have only every had one class out of like 25 that had that small =
of a class. But, I also know that many certified teachers are not =
teaching, they are only doing research. I also know that many Masters =
classes are classified as classes even though they never really meet as =
a "class".

  So you have a Professor that is teaching 3 classes, one with 100 =
students, and two with 2 students each, you have an average of 34 =
students per class. They also like to play number games with the class =
sizes too. I was in a section in a Communications class with only 50 =
seats. When I got to class I found over 100 people in the class, why? =
Because they combined the two sections of the course together so one =
teacher could teach the class. On paper it is only 50 people, but in =
reality, it is many more students. This is done all the time by all =
colleges and Universities to sound better on paper and mix the numbers.

  "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics"  =20


  Donovan Arnold


  >From: Don Kaag=20
  >To: Vision 2020=20
  >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio=20
  >Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:52:34 -0700=20
  >=20
  >Dale:=20
  >=20
  >You are over-simplifying.=20
  >=20
  >You have to know how statistics are arrived at in order to use them=20
  >to realistically portray class size and teacher load.=20
  >=20
  >What the District reports to the State is a simple average of total=20
  >number of certified teachers and total number of students in the=20
  >district. It fails to take into account a number of factors, such=20
  >as:=20
  >=20
  >1. Certified teachers employed by the District in jobs other than=20
  >student-contact jobs.=20
  >=20
  >2. Teachers teaching such non-academic subjects as Band and Chorus,=20
  >which Moscow patrons have overwhelmingly supported.=20
  >=20
  >3. Both gifted and talented and special education teachers whose=20
  >student loads per class period must be much smaller than the average=20
  >class in order to give more individual attention to students.=20
  >=20
  >4. Scheduling problems which overload teachers in one class period=20
  >and under-load them in others, especially at the junior high and=20
  >high school.=20
  >=20
  >As an example, I have one U.S. History section of 19 students, and=20
  >one of 26, which fills all of the desks in my classroom. I have=20
  >worked with the counselors and the administration at the high school=20
  >to get it fixed, but it is a complicated scheduling dance involving=20
  >required courses, electives, and when I and the other teacher=20
  >teaching U.S. History have our prep periods. Last year this problem=20
  >was solved by hiring a part-time teacher to teach several periods of=20
  >U.S. History. With downsizing, that job went away, and we lost=20
  >flexibility.=20
  >=20
  >It isn't as easy as it appears, and very few teachers in this=20
  >district are teaching 15.22 students a day (in the case of the=20
  >elementary schools...) or per period (at the junior high and the=20
  >high school).=20
  >=20
  >Regards,=20
  >=20
  >Don Kaag=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >=20
  >On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 06:02 AM, Dale Courtney wrote:=20
  >=20
  >>Visionaries,=20
  >> =20
  >>Someone on this list once commented to me that in spite of the=20
  >>declining MSD student numbers (15% in 7 years), we should keep the=20
  >>number of teachers constant so that we can have the=20
  >>appropriate-sized classroom ratios.=20
  >> =20
  >>I pulled the string on that recommendation. Here's the results that=20
  >>MSD reported to the State of Idaho's annual statistical report for=20
  >>2002-2003:=20
  >>=20
  >>. MSD's student-to-teacher ratio is 15.22=20
  >>. Of the 25 school districts with >2,500 students, only one=20
  >>(Blaine County) had a smaller ratio.=20
  >>. Note: MSD reported 2,575 students in this report. They will fall=20
  >>to a third-tier school (<2,500) at the end of this year.=20
  >>. Of the 54 school districts with >1,000 students, only one other=20
  >>school district (Grangeville) had a smaller ratio (15.19).=20
  >>=20
  >>What does this mean? It means that MSD already had the 3rd smallest=20
  >>student-to-teacher ratio in the state.=20
  >> =20
  >>FWIW, the state averages for large districts was 18.84,=20
  >>medium-sized districts was 18.04, and small districts was 17.88.=20
  >> =20
  >>Finally, with the student population at MSD falling at a rate of 3%=20
  >>per year, we'll have achieved the lowest ratio in the state by the=20
  >>end of next year.=20
  >> =20
  >>Time to ask for more levy money to right-size those classrooms!=20
  >> =20
  >>Best,=20
  >>Dale Courtney=20
  >>Moscow, Idaho=20


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<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>&gt; <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>"Statistics don't lie, but liars use=20
statistics"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yes, and reasearch has shown that =
91.75% of=20
statistics are made up on the spot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
  <DIV=20
  style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
  <A title=3Ddonovanarnold@hotmail.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddkaag@turbonet.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:dkaag@turbonet.com">dkaag@turbonet.com</A> ; <A=20
  title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
  href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2003 =
5:17=20
PM</DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] MSD=20
  Student-to-Teacher ratio</DIV>
  <DIV><BR></DIV>
  <DIV>
  <DIV>
  <P>Don,</P>
  <P>You are very correct on that one. UI's Student/Teacher ratio is =
like 10:1.=20
  I have only every had one class out of like 25 that had that small of =
a class.=20
  But, I also know that many certified teachers are not teaching, they =
are only=20
  doing research. I also know that many Masters&nbsp;classes are =
classified as=20
  classes even though they never really meet as a "class".</P></DIV>
  <P>So you have a&nbsp;Professor that is teaching&nbsp;3 classes, one =
with 100=20
  students, and two with 2 students each, you have an average of 34 =
students per=20
  class.&nbsp;They also like to play number games with the class sizes =
too.=20
  I&nbsp;was&nbsp;in a section in a Communications class with only 50 =
seats.=20
  When I got to class I found&nbsp;over 100 people in the class, why? =
Because=20
  they combined the two sections of the course together so&nbsp;one =
teacher=20
  could teach the class. On paper it is only 50 people, but in reality, =
it is=20
  many more students. This is done all the time by all colleges and =
Universities=20
  to sound better on paper and mix the numbers.</P>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <P>"Statistics don't lie, but liars use =
statistics"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR></P>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <P>Donovan Arnold<BR></P>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;From: Don Kaag <DKAAG@TURBONET.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;To: Vision 2020 <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:52:34 -0700=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Dale:=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;You are over-simplifying.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;You have to know how statistics are arrived at in order =
to use=20
  them=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;to realistically portray class size and teacher load.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;What the District reports to the State is a simple =
average of=20
  total=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;number of certified teachers and total number of =
students in=20
  the=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;district. It fails to take into account a number of =
factors,=20
  such=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;as:=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;1. Certified teachers employed by the District in jobs =
other=20
  than=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;student-contact jobs.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;2. Teachers teaching such non-academic subjects as Band =
and=20
  Chorus,=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;which Moscow patrons have overwhelmingly supported.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;3. Both gifted and talented and special education =
teachers=20
  whose=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;student loads per class period must be much smaller =
than the=20
  average=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;class in order to give more individual attention to =
students.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;4. Scheduling problems which overload teachers in one =
class=20
  period=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;and under-load them in others, especially at the junior =
high=20
  and=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;high school.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;As an example, I have one U.S. History section of 19 =
students,=20
  and=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;one of 26, which fills all of the desks in my =
classroom. I have=20

  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;worked with the counselors and the administration at =
the high=20
  school=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;to get it fixed, but it is a complicated scheduling =
dance=20
  involving=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;required courses, electives, and when I and the other =
teacher=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;teaching U.S. History have our prep periods. Last year =
this=20
  problem=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;was solved by hiring a part-time teacher to teach =
several=20
  periods of=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;U.S. History. With downsizing, that job went away, and =
we lost=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;flexibility.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;It isn't as easy as it appears, and very few teachers =
in this=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;district are teaching 15.22 students a day (in the case =
of the=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;elementary schools...) or per period (at the junior =
high and=20
  the=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;high school).=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Regards,=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;Don Kaag=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 06:02 AM, Dale Courtney =
wrote:=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Visionaries,=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Someone on this list once commented to me that in =
spite of=20
  the=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;declining MSD student numbers (15% in 7 years), we =
should=20
  keep the=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;number of teachers constant so that we can have the =

  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;appropriate-sized classroom ratios.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I pulled the string on that recommendation. Here's =
the=20
  results that=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;MSD reported to the State of Idaho's annual =
statistical=20
  report for=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;2002-2003:=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;=95 MSD's student-to-teacher ratio is 15.22=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;=95 Of the 25 school districts with &gt;2,500 =
students, only=20
  one=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;(Blaine County) had a smaller ratio.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;=95 Note: MSD reported 2,575 students in this =
report. They=20
  will fall=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;to a third-tier school (&lt;2,500) at the end of =
this year.=20

  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;=95 Of the 54 school districts with &gt;1,000 =
students, only=20
  one other=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;school district (Grangeville) had a smaller ratio =
(15.19).=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;What does this mean? It means that MSD already had =
the 3rd=20
  smallest=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;student-to-teacher ratio in the state.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;FWIW, the state averages for =
large&nbsp;districts&nbsp;was=20
  18.84,=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;medium-sized districts was 18.04, and small =
districts was=20
  17.88.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Finally, with the student population at MSD falling =
at a=20
  rate of 3%=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;per year, we'll have achieved the lowest ratio in =
the state=20
  by the=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;end of next year.=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Time to ask for more levy money to right-size those =

  classrooms!=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;&nbsp;=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Best,=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Dale Courtney=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Moscow, Idaho=20
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV>
  <DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall>
  <HR>
  MSN 8 helps <A =
href=3D"http://g.msn.com/8HMMENUS/2743??PS=3D">ELIMINATE E-MAIL=20
  VIRUSES. </A>Get 2 months FREE*.=20
  _____________________________________________________ List services =
made=20
  available by First Step Internet, serving the communities of the =
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  1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
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