[Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio
John Moss
johnmoss@moscow.com
Thu, 15 May 2003 17:27:37 -0700
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> "Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics" =20
Yes, and reasearch has shown that 91.75% of statistics are made up on =
the spot.
Cheers,
John
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Donovan Arnold=20
To: dkaag@turbonet.com ; vision2020@moscow.com=20
Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2003 5:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio
Don,
You are very correct on that one. UI's Student/Teacher ratio is like =
10:1. I have only every had one class out of like 25 that had that small =
of a class. But, I also know that many certified teachers are not =
teaching, they are only doing research. I also know that many Masters =
classes are classified as classes even though they never really meet as =
a "class".
So you have a Professor that is teaching 3 classes, one with 100 =
students, and two with 2 students each, you have an average of 34 =
students per class. They also like to play number games with the class =
sizes too. I was in a section in a Communications class with only 50 =
seats. When I got to class I found over 100 people in the class, why? =
Because they combined the two sections of the course together so one =
teacher could teach the class. On paper it is only 50 people, but in =
reality, it is many more students. This is done all the time by all =
colleges and Universities to sound better on paper and mix the numbers.
"Statistics don't lie, but liars use statistics" =20
Donovan Arnold
>From: Don Kaag=20
>To: Vision 2020=20
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio=20
>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:52:34 -0700=20
>=20
>Dale:=20
>=20
>You are over-simplifying.=20
>=20
>You have to know how statistics are arrived at in order to use them=20
>to realistically portray class size and teacher load.=20
>=20
>What the District reports to the State is a simple average of total=20
>number of certified teachers and total number of students in the=20
>district. It fails to take into account a number of factors, such=20
>as:=20
>=20
>1. Certified teachers employed by the District in jobs other than=20
>student-contact jobs.=20
>=20
>2. Teachers teaching such non-academic subjects as Band and Chorus,=20
>which Moscow patrons have overwhelmingly supported.=20
>=20
>3. Both gifted and talented and special education teachers whose=20
>student loads per class period must be much smaller than the average=20
>class in order to give more individual attention to students.=20
>=20
>4. Scheduling problems which overload teachers in one class period=20
>and under-load them in others, especially at the junior high and=20
>high school.=20
>=20
>As an example, I have one U.S. History section of 19 students, and=20
>one of 26, which fills all of the desks in my classroom. I have=20
>worked with the counselors and the administration at the high school=20
>to get it fixed, but it is a complicated scheduling dance involving=20
>required courses, electives, and when I and the other teacher=20
>teaching U.S. History have our prep periods. Last year this problem=20
>was solved by hiring a part-time teacher to teach several periods of=20
>U.S. History. With downsizing, that job went away, and we lost=20
>flexibility.=20
>=20
>It isn't as easy as it appears, and very few teachers in this=20
>district are teaching 15.22 students a day (in the case of the=20
>elementary schools...) or per period (at the junior high and the=20
>high school).=20
>=20
>Regards,=20
>=20
>Don Kaag=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 06:02 AM, Dale Courtney wrote:=20
>=20
>>Visionaries,=20
>> =20
>>Someone on this list once commented to me that in spite of the=20
>>declining MSD student numbers (15% in 7 years), we should keep the=20
>>number of teachers constant so that we can have the=20
>>appropriate-sized classroom ratios.=20
>> =20
>>I pulled the string on that recommendation. Here's the results that=20
>>MSD reported to the State of Idaho's annual statistical report for=20
>>2002-2003:=20
>>=20
>>. MSD's student-to-teacher ratio is 15.22=20
>>. Of the 25 school districts with >2,500 students, only one=20
>>(Blaine County) had a smaller ratio.=20
>>. Note: MSD reported 2,575 students in this report. They will fall=20
>>to a third-tier school (<2,500) at the end of this year.=20
>>. Of the 54 school districts with >1,000 students, only one other=20
>>school district (Grangeville) had a smaller ratio (15.19).=20
>>=20
>>What does this mean? It means that MSD already had the 3rd smallest=20
>>student-to-teacher ratio in the state.=20
>> =20
>>FWIW, the state averages for large districts was 18.84,=20
>>medium-sized districts was 18.04, and small districts was 17.88.=20
>> =20
>>Finally, with the student population at MSD falling at a rate of 3%=20
>>per year, we'll have achieved the lowest ratio in the state by the=20
>>end of next year.=20
>> =20
>>Time to ask for more levy money to right-size those classrooms!=20
>> =20
>>Best,=20
>>Dale Courtney=20
>>Moscow, Idaho=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> <FONT face=3D"Times New Roman"=20
size=3D3>"Statistics don't lie, but liars use=20
statistics" </FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Yes, and reasearch has shown that =
91.75% of=20
statistics are made up on the spot.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Cheers,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>John</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Ddonovanarnold@hotmail.com=20
href=3D"mailto:donovanarnold@hotmail.com">Donovan Arnold</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Ddkaag@turbonet.com=20
href=3D"mailto:dkaag@turbonet.com">dkaag@turbonet.com</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dvision2020@moscow.com=20
href=3D"mailto:vision2020@moscow.com">vision2020@moscow.com</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 15, 2003 =
5:17=20
PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Vision2020] MSD=20
Student-to-Teacher ratio</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Don,</P>
<P>You are very correct on that one. UI's Student/Teacher ratio is =
like 10:1.=20
I have only every had one class out of like 25 that had that small of =
a class.=20
But, I also know that many certified teachers are not teaching, they =
are only=20
doing research. I also know that many Masters classes are =
classified as=20
classes even though they never really meet as a "class".</P></DIV>
<P>So you have a Professor that is teaching 3 classes, one =
with 100=20
students, and two with 2 students each, you have an average of 34 =
students per=20
class. They also like to play number games with the class sizes =
too.=20
I was in a section in a Communications class with only 50 =
seats.=20
When I got to class I found over 100 people in the class, why? =
Because=20
they combined the two sections of the course together so one =
teacher=20
could teach the class. On paper it is only 50 people, but in reality, =
it is=20
many more students. This is done all the time by all colleges and =
Universities=20
to sound better on paper and mix the numbers.</P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>"Statistics don't lie, but liars use =
statistics" <BR></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<P>Donovan Arnold<BR></P>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>From: Don Kaag <DKAAG@TURBONET.COM>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>To: Vision 2020 <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] MSD Student-to-Teacher ratio=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 16:52:34 -0700=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Dale:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>You are over-simplifying.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>You have to know how statistics are arrived at in order =
to use=20
them=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>to realistically portray class size and teacher load.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>What the District reports to the State is a simple =
average of=20
total=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>number of certified teachers and total number of =
students in=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>district. It fails to take into account a number of =
factors,=20
such=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>as:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>1. Certified teachers employed by the District in jobs =
other=20
than=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>student-contact jobs.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>2. Teachers teaching such non-academic subjects as Band =
and=20
Chorus,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>which Moscow patrons have overwhelmingly supported.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>3. Both gifted and talented and special education =
teachers=20
whose=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>student loads per class period must be much smaller =
than the=20
average=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>class in order to give more individual attention to =
students.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>4. Scheduling problems which overload teachers in one =
class=20
period=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>and under-load them in others, especially at the junior =
high=20
and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>high school.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>As an example, I have one U.S. History section of 19 =
students,=20
and=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>one of 26, which fills all of the desks in my =
classroom. I have=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>worked with the counselors and the administration at =
the high=20
school=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>to get it fixed, but it is a complicated scheduling =
dance=20
involving=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>required courses, electives, and when I and the other =
teacher=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>teaching U.S. History have our prep periods. Last year =
this=20
problem=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>was solved by hiring a part-time teacher to teach =
several=20
periods of=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>U.S. History. With downsizing, that job went away, and =
we lost=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>flexibility.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>It isn't as easy as it appears, and very few teachers =
in this=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>district are teaching 15.22 students a day (in the case =
of the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>elementary schools...) or per period (at the junior =
high and=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>high school).=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Regards,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>Don Kaag=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>On Thursday, May 15, 2003, at 06:02 AM, Dale Courtney =
wrote:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>Visionaries,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>> =20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>Someone on this list once commented to me that in =
spite of=20
the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>declining MSD student numbers (15% in 7 years), we =
should=20
keep the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>number of teachers constant so that we can have the =
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>appropriate-sized classroom ratios.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>> =20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>I pulled the string on that recommendation. Here's =
the=20
results that=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>MSD reported to the State of Idaho's annual =
statistical=20
report for=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>2002-2003:=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>=95 MSD's student-to-teacher ratio is 15.22=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>=95 Of the 25 school districts with >2,500 =
students, only=20
one=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>(Blaine County) had a smaller ratio.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>=95 Note: MSD reported 2,575 students in this =
report. They=20
will fall=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>to a third-tier school (<2,500) at the end of =
this year.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>=95 Of the 54 school districts with >1,000 =
students, only=20
one other=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>school district (Grangeville) had a smaller ratio =
(15.19).=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>What does this mean? It means that MSD already had =
the 3rd=20
smallest=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>student-to-teacher ratio in the state.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>> =20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>FWIW, the state averages for =
large districts was=20
18.84,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>medium-sized districts was 18.04, and small =
districts was=20
17.88.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>> =20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>Finally, with the student population at MSD falling =
at a=20
rate of 3%=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>per year, we'll have achieved the lowest ratio in =
the state=20
by the=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>end of next year.=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>> =20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>Time to ask for more levy money to right-size those =
classrooms!=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>> =20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>Best,=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>Dale Courtney=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>>>Moscow, Idaho=20
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV></DIV><BR clear=3Dall>
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MSN 8 helps <A =
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_____________________________________________________ List services =
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1994. http://www.fsr.net mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com=20
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