[Vision2020] Oath for gun ownership/self-government

Donovan Arnold donovanarnold@hotmail.com
Thu, 15 May 2003 14:08:33 -0700


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<P>Don,</P>
<P>That is very interesting. I didn't know that stuff. Except, I did know that hand guns made up for about 95% of homicide shootings. Perhaps we should focus more on the stopping of the illegal trafficing and sale of guns to people that should not have them then anything else. Thanks!</P>
<P>Donovan Arnold<BR><BR></P></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;From: Don Kaag <DKAAG@TURBONET.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;To: Vision 2020 <VISION2020@MOSCOW.COM>
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Oath for gun ownership/self-government 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 06:35:58 -0700 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Donovan: 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;There are very few people agitating for "automatic machine guns" to 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;be generally available. The current controversy is over 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;semi-automatic rifles with large-capacity magazines. The ones in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;question are so-called "assault rifles". The amusing fact is that 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;the same manufacturers make exactly the same barreled actions in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;"sport models", and those are legal... they just have a different 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;stock, and a smaller,hunting-legal, magazine. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;It is even legal to own an automatic (Class III) weapon in the US, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;but it requires a special permit, and FBI registration. There are 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;serious collectors of militaria around the country who own them 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;legally. Since the law was put in place in 1936, only one 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;legally-registered automatic weapon has ever been used in the 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;commission of a crime, and that one was registered to a law officer 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;who would have had access to an automatic weapon anyway. This, of 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;course, doesn't regulate the Uzi's, MAC 10's. H&amp;K MP-5's, and other 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;cool designer submachine guns which are smuggled into the country 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;along the drug pipelines and used as status symbols by your friendly 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;local big-city drug lord. But they are already illegal as hell. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Military collectors or ordinary citizens wanting to defend their 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;families and homes are not the problem. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;As for "armor piercing" bullets, it is a little-known fact that 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;virtually any rifle slug is an "armor piercing" bullet. The typical 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;military or police protective vest isn't designed to stop rifle or 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;machine gun rounds---you could make one, but it would be impossible 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;to function in it. Vests are designed to stop small to medium 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;caliber pistol bullets and shotgun rounds, and in the case of 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;military vests, fragments from grenades, mortars, etc. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Large capacity magazines (more than 10 rounds) are now illegal to 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;manufacture or import into the US, but not to sell. They are still 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;available for sale, from older stocks, and there are millions, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;perhaps hundreds of millions of them already owned in this country. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;The interesting thing about people who want to continue, and 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;increase, bans on semi-auto rifles and large capacity magazines in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;the US is that while they may look threatening to civilians and 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;non-gun folks, such weapons and magazines are used in the commission 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;of less than one-half of one percent of the gun-related crimes in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;America. So it is really a non-problem. People do buy and own them 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;for either target shooting and/or home defense. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Regards, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;Don Kaag 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 10:13 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote: 
<DIV></DIV>&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Speaking of private gun ownership, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I am all for private ownership in places like Idaho, Montana, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Alaska, and other places that are like two hours from the nearest 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;law enforcement and there are plenty of places to hunt. I don't see 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;how right-wing activists can preach, let alone sleep at night, that 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;people living in the city have the right to own an automatic 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;machine gun with armor piercing bullets. The only purpose for this 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;weapon is murder. Small hand guns, and rifles have some legitimate 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;uses in many areas of the country. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;There are WAY to many stupid people out there that have guns that 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;should not. They leave them out for their children to play with. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;They point them at people. They shoot their friends and hunting 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;partners. They do not protect access to their guns and ammunition 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;from others to use in crimes. Individuals should only be allowed to 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;own a gun if they meet the following conditions. ( read this with a 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;sense of humor and a pinch of salt) 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;a) They have an IQ of 90 or better 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;b) Take lessons and pass a test on how to properly use and store a 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;gun 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;c) Have a minimum of a High School Diploma 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;d) Physically be able to aim and hit a target 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;e) Pass a common sense test. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;f) Sign the following agreement. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I ________________ Do solemnly swear to my God, my state, and my 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;nation, that I will not use this gun as a toy. I will not point it 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;at people. I will not use it commit a crime. I will not refer to it 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;as a threat against another person(s)'s life. I will store it in a 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;location where my children, my children's friends, or other 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;visitors to my home can not access the gun or ammunition without my 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;direct knowledge and permission. I will not clean it loaded, or 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;even unloaded, in front of others. I will not discharge the weapon 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;in a populated area of more then 10 other people with the exception 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;of a shooting range or other specified area. While hunting I will 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;not shoot it at any moving or living creature until I am 100% sure 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;it is&nbsp;not another hunter or other human walking through the woods. 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I will use common sense in all my uses of this weapon, I fully 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;understand it can kill, even by accident. I understand that I will 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;not face legal prosecution for using it as a defense agai! nst my 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;property, life, or the life of my family or neighbors. I fully 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;understand that violation of this oath is contrary to the very 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;principle of freedom and a direct violation of the freedoms and 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;liberties of other free citizens of the United States of America. I 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;am also intelligent enough to know that this weapon is not capable 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;of defeating or defending against an even partial attack from the 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;United States&nbsp;Military which is the most powerful&nbsp;on the planet. If 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;I am found guilty of violating this oath then I shall be forced to 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;sit on this gun in such a manner as to be able to&nbsp;pull the trigger, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;and then do so. : ) 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;Donovan Arnold 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt;From: Joshua Nieuwsma 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt;Subject: RE: [Vision2020] self-govenment 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt;Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:30:22 -0700 (PDT) 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt;good point. I agree. But any government as big as the US that 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;would use its full military force would be condemned world-over. 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt;-joshua nieuwsma 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt;Ron Force wrote: 
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<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt; &gt;The concept of an armed citizenry rolling back the army of a 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;tyrannical government has been a favorite fantasy of the Rambos of 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the right-- and to be perfectly honest, the loonies of the Left in 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the 70's. The recent festivities in Iraq should give such true 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;believers pause. Let's face it, unless you have B-52s and JDAMS, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;the government has you way outgunned. The Marines made short work 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;of the fedayeen, and they had mortars and quad machine guns, 
<DIV></DIV>&gt;&gt;neither of which are likely to be on the open market soon. 
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