[Vision2020] Oath for gun ownership/self-government
Don Kaag
dkaag@turbonet.com
Thu, 15 May 2003 06:35:58 -0700
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Donovan:
There are very few people agitating for "automatic machine guns" to be=20=
generally available. The current controversy is over semi-automatic=20
rifles with large-capacity magazines. The ones in question are=20
so-called "assault rifles". The amusing fact is that the same=20
manufacturers make exactly the same barreled actions in "sport models",=20=
and those are legal... they just have a different stock, and a=20
smaller,hunting-legal, magazine.
It is even legal to own an automatic (Class III) weapon in the US, but=20=
it requires a special permit, and FBI registration. There are serious=20=
collectors of militaria around the country who own them legally. Since=20=
the law was put in place in 1936, only one legally-registered automatic=20=
weapon has ever been used in the commission of a crime, and that one=20
was registered to a law officer who would have had access to an=20
automatic weapon anyway. This, of course, doesn't regulate the Uzi's,=20=
MAC 10's. H&K MP-5's, and other cool designer submachine guns which are=20=
smuggled into the country along the drug pipelines and used as status=20
symbols by your friendly local big-city drug lord. But they are=20
already illegal as hell. Military collectors or ordinary citizens=20
wanting to defend their families and homes are not the problem.
As for "armor piercing" bullets, it is a little-known fact that=20
virtually any rifle slug is an "armor piercing" bullet. The typical=20
military or police protective vest isn't designed to stop rifle or=20
machine gun rounds---you could make one, but it would be impossible to=20=
function in it. Vests are designed to stop small to medium caliber=20
pistol bullets and shotgun rounds, and in the case of military vests,=20
fragments from grenades, mortars, etc.
Large capacity magazines (more than 10 rounds) are now illegal to=20
manufacture or import into the US, but not to sell. They are still=20
available for sale, from older stocks, and there are millions, perhaps=20=
hundreds of millions of them already owned in this country.
The interesting thing about people who want to continue, and increase,=20=
bans on semi-auto rifles and large capacity magazines in the US is that=20=
while they may look threatening to civilians and non-gun folks, such=20
weapons and magazines are used in the commission of less than one-half=20=
of one percent of the gun-related crimes in America. So it is really a=20=
non-problem. People do buy and own them for either target shooting=20
and/or home defense.
Regards,
Don Kaag
On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 10:13 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
> Speaking of private gun ownership,
>
> I am all for private ownership in places like Idaho, Montana, Alaska,=20=
> and other places that are like two hours from the nearest law=20
> enforcement and there are plenty of places to hunt. I don't see how=20
> right-wing activists can preach, let alone sleep at night, that people=20=
> living in the city have the right to own an automatic machine gun with=20=
> armor piercing bullets. The only purpose for this weapon is murder.=20
> Small hand guns, and rifles have some legitimate uses in many areas of=20=
> the country.
>
>
>
>
> There are WAY to many stupid people out there that have guns that=20
> should not. They leave them out for their children to play with. They=20=
> point them at people. They shoot their friends and hunting partners.=20=
> They do not protect access to their guns and ammunition from others to=20=
> use in crimes. Individuals should only be allowed to own a gun if they=20=
> meet the following conditions. ( read this with a sense of humor and a=20=
> pinch of salt)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> a) They have an IQ of 90 or better
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> b) Take lessons and pass a test on how to properly use and store a gun
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> c) Have a minimum of a High School Diploma
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> d) Physically be able to aim and hit a target
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> e) Pass a common sense test.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> f) Sign the following agreement.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I ________________ Do solemnly swear to my God, my state, and my=20
> nation, that I will not use this gun as a toy. I will not point it at=20=
> people. I will not use it commit a crime. I will not refer to it as a=20=
> threat against another person(s)'s life. I will store it in a location=20=
> where my children, my children's friends, or other visitors to my home=20=
> can not access the gun or ammunition without my direct knowledge and=20=
> permission. I will not clean it loaded, or even unloaded, in front of=20=
> others. I will not discharge the weapon in a populated area of more=20
> then 10 other people with the exception of a shooting range or other=20=
> specified area. While hunting I will not shoot it at any moving or=20
> living creature until I am 100% sure it is=A0not another hunter or =
other=20
> human walking through the woods. I will use common sense in all my=20
> uses of this weapon, I fully understand it can kill, even by accident.=20=
> I understand that I will not face legal prosecution for using it as a=20=
> defense agai! nst my property, life, or the life of my family or=20
> neighbors. I fully understand that violation of this oath is contrary=20=
> to the very principle of freedom and a direct violation of the=20
> freedoms and liberties of other free citizens of the United States of=20=
> America. I am also intelligent enough to know that this weapon is not=20=
> capable of defeating or defending against an even partial attack from=20=
> the United States=A0Military which is the most powerful=A0on the =
planet.=20
> If I am found guilty of violating this oath then I shall be forced to=20=
> sit on this gun in such a manner as to be able to=A0pull the trigger,=20=
> and then do so. : )
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
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>
> >From: Joshua Nieuwsma
>
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>
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> >To: vision
>
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>
>
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] self-govenment
>
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>
> >Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
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> >
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>
> >good point. I agree. But any government as big as the US that would=20=
> use its full military force would be condemned world-over.
>
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> >-joshua nieuwsma
>
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> >
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> >Ron Force wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >The concept of an armed citizenry rolling back the army of a=20
> tyrannical government has been a favorite fantasy of the Rambos of the=20=
> right-- and to be perfectly honest, the loonies of the Left in the=20
> 70's. The recent festivities in Iraq should give such true believers=20=
> pause. Let's face it, unless you have B-52s and JDAMS, the government=20=
> has you way outgunned. The Marines made short work of the fedayeen,=20
> and they had mortars and quad machine guns, neither of which are=20
> likely to be on the open market soon.
>
>
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> >
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> >
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> >---------------------------------
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
> >Do you Yahoo!?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
>
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>
<image.tiff>
>
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.=
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Donovan:
There are very few people agitating for "automatic machine guns" to be
generally available. The current controversy is over semi-automatic
rifles with large-capacity magazines. The ones in question are
so-called "assault rifles". The amusing fact is that the same
manufacturers make exactly the same barreled actions in "sport
models", and those are legal... they just have a different stock, and
a smaller,hunting-legal, magazine.
It is even legal to own an automatic (Class III) weapon in the US, but
it requires a special permit, and FBI registration. There are serious
collectors of militaria around the country who own them legally.=20
Since the law was put in place in 1936, only one legally-registered
automatic weapon has ever been used in the commission of a crime, and
that one was registered to a law officer who would have had access to
an automatic weapon anyway. This, of course, doesn't regulate the
Uzi's, MAC 10's. H&K MP-5's, and other cool designer submachine guns
which are smuggled into the country along the drug pipelines and used
as status symbols by your friendly local big-city drug lord. But they
are already illegal as hell. Military collectors or ordinary citizens
wanting to defend their families and homes are not the problem.
As for "armor piercing" bullets, it is a little-known fact that
virtually any rifle slug is an "armor piercing" bullet. The typical
military or police protective vest isn't designed to stop rifle or
machine gun rounds---you could make one, but it would be impossible to
function in it. Vests are designed to stop small to medium caliber
pistol bullets and shotgun rounds, and in the case of military vests,
fragments from grenades, mortars, etc.
Large capacity magazines (more than 10 rounds) are now illegal to
manufacture or import into the US, but not to sell. They are still
available for sale, from older stocks, and there are millions, perhaps
hundreds of millions of them already owned in this country. =20
The interesting thing about people who want to continue, and increase,
bans on semi-auto rifles and large capacity magazines in the US is
that while they may look threatening to civilians and non-gun folks,
such weapons and magazines are used in the commission of less than
one-half of one percent of the gun-related crimes in America. So it
is really a non-problem. People do buy and own them for either target
shooting and/or home defense.
Regards,
Don Kaag
On Wednesday, May 14, 2003, at 10:13 PM, Donovan Arnold wrote:
<excerpt>Speaking of private gun ownership,
I am all for private ownership in places like Idaho, Montana, Alaska,
and other places that are like two hours from the nearest law
enforcement and there are plenty of places to hunt. I don't see how
right-wing activists can preach, let alone sleep at night, that people
living in the city have the right to own an automatic machine gun with
armor piercing bullets. The only purpose for this weapon is murder.
Small hand guns, and rifles have some legitimate uses in many areas of
the country.
There are WAY to many stupid people out there that have guns that
should not. They leave them out for their children to play with. They
point them at people. They shoot their friends and hunting partners.
They do not protect access to their guns and ammunition from others to
use in crimes. Individuals should only be allowed to own a gun if they
meet the following conditions. ( read this with a sense of humor and a
pinch of salt)
a) They have an IQ of 90 or better
b) Take lessons and pass a test on how to properly use and store a gun
c) Have a minimum of a High School Diploma
d) Physically be able to aim and hit a target
e) Pass a common sense test.
f) Sign the following agreement.
I ________________ Do solemnly swear to my God, my state, and my
nation, that I will not use this gun as a toy. I will not point it at
people. I will not use it commit a crime. I will not refer to it as a
threat against another person(s)'s life. I will store it in a location
where my children, my children's friends, or other visitors to my home
can not access the gun or ammunition without my direct knowledge and
permission. I will not clean it loaded, or even unloaded, in front of
others. I will not discharge the weapon in a populated area of more
then 10 other people with the exception of a shooting range or other
specified area. While hunting I will not shoot it at any moving or
living creature until I am 100% sure it is=A0not another hunter or other
human walking through the woods. I will use common sense in all my
uses of this weapon, I fully understand it can kill, even by accident.
I understand that I will not face legal prosecution for using it as a
defense agai! nst my property, life, or the life of my family or
neighbors. I fully understand that violation of this oath is contrary
to the very principle of freedom and a direct violation of the
freedoms and liberties of other free citizens of the United States of
America. I am also intelligent enough to know that this weapon is not
capable of defeating or defending against an even partial attack from
the United States=A0Military which is the most powerful=A0on the planet.
If I am found guilty of violating this oath then I shall be forced to
sit on this gun in such a manner as to be able to=A0pull the trigger,
and then do so. : )
Donovan Arnold
>From: Joshua Nieuwsma=20
>To: vision=20
>Subject: RE: [Vision2020] self-govenment
>Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 17:30:22 -0700 (PDT)
>
>good point. I agree. But any government as big as the US that would
use its full military force would be condemned world-over.
>-joshua nieuwsma
>
>Ron Force wrote:
>The concept of an armed citizenry rolling back the army of a
tyrannical government has been a favorite fantasy of the Rambos of the
right-- and to be perfectly honest, the loonies of the Left in the
70's. The recent festivities in Iraq should give such true believers
pause. Let's face it, unless you have B-52s and JDAMS, the government
has you way outgunned. The Marines made short work of the fedayeen,
and they had mortars and quad machine guns, neither of which are
likely to be on the open market soon.
>
>
>
>---------------------------------
>Do you Yahoo!?
>The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
</excerpt>=20
<excerpt>
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Add photos to your messages with
<underline><color><param>1999,1999,FFFF</param>MSN
8.</color></underline> Get 2 months FREE*.</excerpt>=
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