[Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state

[Ted Moffett]

Joshua, et. al.

The author denies the importance of science and what he terms "human logic 
and ideas."  "Why should I believe your logic over mine?" he queries Mr. 
Nielsen.

At the end of this post he insists the Bible does not belong in the public 
schools, "because the Bible is truth, and truth has been denied in most 
every government school."

It seems the author is using the very "human logic and ideas" he disparages 
to make his case.  By what logic or evidence does the author know the Bible 
is truth, and does not belong in the "government schools," which deny truth? 
  If his logic is derived from some source other than "human logic and 
ideas" then he might truly stand in a superior position to Mr. Nielson.

So if this logic of this special superior form of thinking can be 
communicated, please do spell out the propositions of this special logic, so 
we can all be enlightened.  I am sure the world's mathematicians and 
logicians would be grateful.

But if you throw away human logic and ideas to refute the validity of 
someone's ideas, or the need to listen to someone who disagrees with you, 
while later on you slip in the back door some of this same "human logic and 
ideas" to prove your case, your are engaging in an intellectual sleight of 
hand trick that might fool some, but not all.

Does the Bible contain Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity?  Does the 
Bible contain the statements of Calculus or Analytic Geometry?  Does the 
Bible contain the logic of binary systems upon which most computers are 
based.  Does the Bible contain the poetry of Shakespeare, Emily Dickenson or 
T. S. Eliot?   Does the Bible have instructions for open heart surgery or 
building a nuclear reactor or how to fix your cars engine?  I could go on, 
but why?  It seems the public schools do offer truths the Bible does not!

The Bible likely contains some truth and some falsehood, just like the 
public schools.  Is a student making a pledge to be "one nation under God" 
against your religion?  Would you rather the public schools featured a 
pledge to be "one nation, under science against God?"  It appear this last 
pledge is what you really think!

By the way, science utilizes both inductive and deductive reasoning.  
Whether "proofs" are supplied by science is a debatable question.  No one 
thinks the weather report is a "proof" of what sort of weather we will have 
two days hence.  It is a very inductive and probabilistic prediction.  But 
when a missile goes into orbit, the equations involved work with such 
precision that some would consider it "proved" that the equations are 
correct in their predictions of what will happen with a given mass at a 
given speed leaving the earth's surface, etc.

But one of the major sources of doubt about the world is derived from the 
simple question: "Why should the universe continue to operate with the same 
laws as we have observed it operating?"
Or to put it theologically, "Why it is considered impossible that God not be 
allowed to change his own laws, being all powerful and all knowing?"  Do we 
have a proof the laws of nature or God will not change suddenly for reasons 
we do not understand?  Such a proof appears evasive for either question, 
which should plant doubt in the minds of scientific atheists and 
anti-scientific theists alike.

As to whether logical laws humans have discovered are just "human logic and 
ideas" is seriously debatable.  Some of the greatest thinkers of history 
have determined that certain logical laws are true by virtue of their 
inherent construction, and remain true whether human beings remain in the 
universe or not.  In this sense these logical statements are not "human," 
but universal to all times and places and intelligent beings, even perhaps 
God.

Ted


>From: Joshua Nieuwsma <joshuahendrik@yahoo.com>
>To: vision <vision2020@moscow.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Re: Bible in school. Was Church and state
>Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 09:21:04 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Mr. Nielsen,
>
>even if I gave you an "official" divine definition of God's word, you 
>wouldn't believe it. So why ask for one? With all due respect, your 
>rational mind would try to find some flaw with it. Even if God was to 
>appear before you and declare that the 66 books of the Bible are His Word 
>and that He has preserved them throughout history for His Church, you would 
>seek to find some reason to discredit His appearance. As Scrooge said: You 
>might be perhaps a bit of bad beef, or a piece of underdone potato. No, 
>there's more of gravy than the grave about you. Humbug I tell you! Humbug! 
>I completely doubt that you would accept a voice from heaven saying "this 
>is my son, hear him". Could you have conquered in the sign of the cross 
>like Constantine did? With respect, I think you would be one of those 
>dwarves in The Last Battle who stubbornly refused to believe they had gone 
>through the stable door into paradise. And so to them paradise was a dank, 
>dark, smelly, muddy, straw-strewn little sh!
>  ed. And
>  yet all around them was green grass, trees with perfect fruit, blue 
>skies, pure streams of water, and next to them stood the King Himself.
>
>It is impossible to have "objective" truth according to man. Science is an 
>inductive discipline, it is not deductive. It cannot prove anything. Human 
>logic is based upon our own concepts and ideas. Why should I believe your 
>logic over mine?
>
>And if the Bible indeed is not worthy of a single drop of blood in its 
>defense, let alone blood spilled in the offense against the gates of Hell, 
>what would you defend with your life, Mr. Nielsen? What is important enough 
>to you to fight for? Daughter? Mother? Friend? House? Church? Nation? Why 
>are any of those important? Who says they are? By what standard do you 
>defend anything?
>
>The Bible shouldn't be in the public school because the Bible is truth, and 
>truth has been denied in most every government school.
>
>have a good day,
>
>Joshua Nieuwsma
>
>
>
>
>Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu> wrote:
> > From: Joshua Nieuwsma
> > Date: Thu Jul 24, 2003 1:47:12 PM US/Pacific
> > To: vision
> > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Church and State
> >
> >
> > I for one don't want to see a bible class taught alongside mormonism,
> > islam, hinduism, buddhism, and any other -'isms. Why set the Word of
> > God equal with the words of confused man? Take the Bible out of the
> > public schools completely! It's about time the goals of public
> > education were consistent with their practices. And while we're at it,
> > kick the Christian children out, too. Their parents should have
> > have pulled them out a long time ago. It's safer outside on the
> > highway than in the government school classroom.
> >
> > Allow me also to take Mr. Moffett's statement about religion as an
> > integral part of some classes and point out that it is impossible for
> > any class or "subject" (though the idea of "subjects" is a bad one
> > anyhow. It's not how the mind works, in my opinion) to be taught with
> > direct foundation in God's Holy Word.
> >
> > Mr. Moffett, your ecumenism of having every religion in a class taught
> > about seems merely a grand utopia. Can you think of any schools that
> > have successfully implemented such a plan anywhere in the world,
> > without strife and division, or an undue emphasis of one religion over
> > another?
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > Joshua N.
> >
>
>Dear Joshua:
>First of all, a lesson in grammar. Mormonism, Islam, Hinduism, etc.
>are proper nouns. They require a capital letter whether you like them
>or not. The same is true of the Bible, which is under discussion here.
>It is a proper noun, not a generic term.
>Although many religions claim they have the true Word of God, none of
>them have any objective proof. Religious warfare has been around for
>centuries and is still with us today. A few days ago I asked (your
>brother?) Luke for an official divine definition of exactly what
>constitutes "God's Holy Word, the Bible." We are still waiting. The
>reason is that all holy books have been written and compiled by human
>beings, usually men.
>I am personally well acquainted with the Bible. I have a couple of
>dozen different translations, languages, and versions on my shelves. I
>also have copies of various other allegedly divine books. Once you
>realize that they are all of entirely human origin, you soon feel that
>none of them is worth a single drop of blood.
>Go in peace.
>Ralph Nielsen
>
>
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