[Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat on Iraq
Tim Lohrmann
timlohr@yahoo.com
Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:47:04 -0700 (PDT)
Donovan,
FINALLY! Now this is what I wanted out of what was
becoming a tiresome discussion--some genuine political
analysis. I was starting to think everyone on here was
too defensive about their precious Democrat party to
be able to discuss what in the heck they're doing.
I think you've made some darned good points. But
what about Gephardt? You think he's not in the picture
at all? The only reason I do is because he's
apparently got a good start in Iowa for those
ridiculous caucuses that the press always puts so much
stock in. I think he might get off to a good start at
least, and possibly after a victory in Iowa become a
more moderate, labor-backed alternative to Kerry and
Dean in their almost home turf of New Hampshire. So,
if Dean and Kerry split the more liberal votes,
Gephardt could do well there.
I'm not sure if I agree with you or not about
whether Dean fades if WMD's are found. You're right,
of course, that he's appealing to the more liberal
wing by criticizing Bush on foreign policy but I
believe that his support is pretty deep. In other
words, the people that DO support him are true
believers who won't be swayed. Remember, we're talking
Demo primary voters here, not the general election.
I'm sure they'll be forgiving about criticism of Bush
for any reason. Dean will of course be a weak
candidate in the Gen. Election, but so will Bush, and
somebody's got to win, right?
AS for Lieberman, I don't think he's going anywhere
because most people just can't visualize the guy as
president. Edwards might just catch on yet. But I
think he needs to do it pretty quick if he's going to
start getting the money he's going to need from any
sector of big contributors other than his fellow trial
lawyers.
Personally, I believe one of the under reported
aspects of this primary race is the effect Al Sharpton
will have. Of course it won't be much in Iowa or NH
where there are fewer minority voters. But when the
race moves to South Carolina and other Southern states
where blacks make up a very large percentage of Demo
primary voters, I think Ole Al will pick up quite a
few delegates. Jesse Jackson sure did. Then it will
be interesting to watch the Demo bigwigs trying to
shut Sharpton up (let's face it the guy DOES come up
with some interesting rants now and then) while at the
same time keeping black voters on their side. That
might be a tough one.
TL
--- Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Tim,
>
> I can't believe you don't see why Clinton said that.
> The Democratic Party is
> divided. The DLC and DNC want Lieberman and Edwards
> to win. The left wing of
> the party is fueled by anger and want Dean. A few
> others want Kerry because
> he is more moderate and served in the military. The
> Uranium words were
> giving Dean and Kerry the most traction. Clinton's
> words just pulled the
> traction and momentum right out from underneath Dean
> and Kerry moving
> Lieberman and Edwards into a better position. If WMD
> are found, Dean falls
> on his face and Kerry fades away. I have a hunch
> that there will be some
> weapons of mass destruction found, or planted, in
> the next 6 months. Clinton
> is saving the face of the Democratic Party in that
> event. I think it is
> smart. God help us if we have to choose between Bush
> and Dean in 2004. We
> might as well concede the 50 colonies back to the
> British and say this
> experiment is over in that event. Choosing between
> a man who lies and is
> incompetent and a man who does not tell the truth
> and is not competent, is
> not much of a choice if you ask most people.
> I support General Wesley Clark for President, no
> matter what! He has more
> qualifications than anyone in the ring now. He is a
> "to the slightly left"
> Ronald Reagan.
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
> Donovan J Arnold
>
>
> >From: Tim Lohrmann <timlohr@yahoo.com>
> >To: Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>
> >CC: vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National Democrat
> on Iraq
> >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
> >
> >Sunil,
> > I CAN'T let go of the Democrats--at least the
> >national ones. They're so-o-o arrogantly
> condescending
> >towards all sorts of behavior except when one of
> their
> >own does it. Then it's fine!
> > Kerry is going around criticizing W for doing
> >exactly what he himself has recommended. That's the
> >sort of hypocrisy that needs to be exposed over and
> >over.
> > As for Bill Clinton's groin--even though he
> has
> >"opened the door" on that one(sorry, couldn't
> >resist)--I only brought him(and not his groin) up
> this
> >last time to speculate on why he would defend GW at
> >the exact moment when his partymates seem to be
> making
> >some hay over the W's uranium thingy. That seemed a
> >little puzzling to most on here. They couldn't
> answer
> >why he'd do it, and neither can I.
> >
> > In any case, Clinton's comments are directly
> >relevant to what you write that you consider
> important
> >below. Apparently ole Bill HAS looked at what W has
> >and is doing and he doesn't see a whole lot wrong
> with
> >it.
> >
> > The politics of all this is interesting, but as
> for
> >my personal view on the buildup to the war. I don't
> >believe it has made the country more secure against
> >possible terrorist attacks. I'd much rather have
> seen
> >these resources and in some cases manpower devoted
> to
> >dramatically stepped up efforts at finding out just
> >what and who is coming into our ports, across our
> own
> >borders, living in our cities etc.
> > As for the W administration's honesty. I
> believe
> >his administration is run by the neocons, many of
> whom
> >have written for years about how much they wanted
> to
> >go to war with Iraq. The WMD idea was a way to
> justify
> >what they wanted to do already. But again, so
> >apparently did many of the Demos. including many of
> >the ones travelling around to advance themselves by
> >criticizing W right now.
> > TL
> >
> >
> >
> >--- Sunil Ramalingam <sunilramalingam@hotmail.com>
> >wrote:
> > > Of course Kerry is trying to have it both ways.
> But
> > > it's silly to pretend the Democrats are some
> sort of
> > > monolithic, single-minded party. If they were,
> > > they'd be in power right now.
> > >
> > > Tim, let go of the Democrats long enough to
> answer
> > > this question: Do you think the Bush
> Administration
> > > has been honest, either in its buildup towards
> war,
> > > or since that time, in presenting its rationales
> for
> > > the invasion of Iraq? Since they're in charge
> now,
> > > wouldn't you agree that it might be more
> important
> > > to look at what they're doing, rather than
> focusing
> > > on Bill Clinton's groin? I for one would rather
> > > look elsewhere, and at items with more
> significance.
> > >
> > > Sunil Ramalingam
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Tim Lohrmann
> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 7:52 PM
> > > To: thansen@moscow.com
> > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > Subject: RE: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National
> Democrat
> > > on Iraq
> > >
> > > Tom,
> > > Do the politics of the messenger mean that
> Kerry
> > > didn't make the statement?
> > > TL
> > >
> > > --- Tom Hansen <thansen@moscow.com> wrote:
> > > > Of course, one must realize that John McCaslin
> > > > stands slightly to the right
> > > > of Rush Limbaugh as relfected in the articles
> > > > authored by him at:
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
>http://www.townhall.com/columnists/johnmccaslin/archive.shtml
> > > >
> > > > Tom Hansen
> > > > Moscow, Idaho
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com
> > > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> > > > > Behalf Of Tim Lohrmann
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 6:09 PM
> > > > > To: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > > > Subject: [Vision2020] ANOTHER National
> Democrat
> > > on
> > > > Iraq
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Visionaries,
> > > > > The Democrats' Iraq stances are looking
> > > > > increasingly schizophrenic, no?
> > > > > TL
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > INSIDE THE BELTWAY
> > > > > > By John McCaslin
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > > > KERRY'S WAR
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suffice it to say that Democratic
> > > > presidential
> > > > > > hopeful John Kerry has made "Iraqgate" the
> > > theme
> > > > of
> > > > > > his campaign.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On virtually every stump he's stood
> on
> > > this
> > > > > > week, the Massachusetts Democrat has
> > > complained
> > > > that
> > > > > > President Bush sidestepped the
> congressionally
> > > > > > approved path to war by bypassing the
> United
> > > > > > Nations, by not building an international
> > > > coalition,
> > > > > > and simply by not doing what it was that
> he
> > > had
> > > > > > promised to do (actually, one could argue
> that
> > > > the
> > > > > > senator is wrong on all three counts).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Forget that Mr. Kerry voted in favor
> of
> > > the
> > > > > > Iraq war resolution. He did so, he now
> says,
> > > > with
> > > > > > the understanding that Mr. Bush would
> exhaust
> > > > every
> > > > > > remedy first. What was the big hurry, in
> other
> > > > > > words.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But let's revisit Nov. 17, 1997, when
> > > > nobody
> > > > > > else in Washington except the Inside the
> > > Beltway
> > > > > > column led with an item headlined, "Finish
> the
> > > > > > mission."
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Debate on whether to take out Saddam
> > > > Hussein,
> > > > > > the Iraqi strongman, is over as far as one
> > > > > > Democratic senator is concerned," or so we
> had
> > > > > > written.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts is
> > > > calling
> > > > > > for a 'strong' military attack in response
> to
> > > > the
> > > > > > Iraqi leader's 'horrific objective of
> amassing
> > > a
> > > > > > stockpile of weapons of mass
> destruction.'B "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Weapons of mass destruction? That's
> what
> > > > Mr.
> > > > > > Kerry called them.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "As the senator points out, military
> > > might
> > > > is
> > > > > > the only language Saddam knows B and
> fears.
> > > > 'Saddam
> > > > > > Hussein should pay a grave price, in a
> > > currency
> > > > that
> > > > > > he understands and values, for his
> > > unacceptable
> > > > > > behavior,' says Mr. Kerry. 'This should
> not be
> > > a
> > > > > > strike consisting only of a handful of
> cruise
> > > > > > missiles hitting isolated targets
> primarily of
> > > > > > presumed symbolic value. But how long this
> > > > military
> > > > > > action might continue and how it may
> escalate
> > > > ...
> > > > > > and how extensive it would reach are for
> the
> > > > [White
> > > > > > House National] Security Council and our
> > > allies
> > > > to
> > > > > > know and for Saddam Hussein to find out!'B
> "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just as you wished, Senator.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > __________________________________
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