[Vision2020] Re: Vision2020 digest, Vol 1 #508 - Heaven and hell

[Ralph Nielsen]

> From: "Luke" <lukenieuwsma@softhome.net>
> Date: Mon Jun 30, 2003  7:00:16 PM US/Pacific
> To: "Ralph Nielsen" <nielsen@uidaho.edu>, "vision2020" 
> <vision2020@moscow.com>
> Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Heaven and hell?
>
> LN
> Hello, Mr. Nielsen,
>
> Thanks for your reply, but I find myself in considerable disagreement 
> with
> you.

RN (6/29, omitted by Luke Nieuwsma)
Mr. Nieuwsma seems to have the idea that moral behavior depends on the 
existence of a god or gods. Some of the most atrocious human actions 
have been done in the name of a god. He also seems to imply that it is 
the threat of postmortem punishment by a god that makes people behave 
morally. This is flatly contradicted by the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament 
to Christians).

> RN
>> have been done in the name of a god. He also seems to imply that it is
>> the threat of postmortem punishment by a god that makes people behave
>> morally. This is flatly contradicted by the Hebrew Bible (Old 
>> Testament
>> to Christians).
>
LN
> The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise 
> wisdom
> and instruction - Prov 1:7
> The Hebrew word for "fear" there is yir'ah, a moral/reverent fear, 
> since you
> don't seem to trust modern translations.

RN (7/1)
Exactly. the only way Yahweh (the LORD) can punish you is while you are 
alive. (I don't know what Luke means by modern translations, but the 
KJV is not one of them.)
>
RN
>> In the Hebrew religion there is no such thing as a separate soul and
>> there is no life after death. In the entire Old Testament not one
>> single person dies and goes to heaven.
>
LN
> I believe you are incorrect. Consider Psalm 17:15 -
> "As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I will be satisfied 
> when
> I awake in your likeness."

RN (7/1)
This psalm is not about an afterlife but about Yahweh (the LORD) 
protecting David from mortals (other men) (vs.14). The final verse 
reads: "Then I, justified, will behold your face; awake, I am filled 
with the vision of You" (Psalm 17:15 Tanakh, Jewish Publication 
Society). I like modern translations, especially Jewish ones when 
dealing with the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament).
>
> RN
> And no one dies and goes to hell
>> either (except in dishonest translations like the King James Version).
>
> LN
> Take a look at Prov 1:12
> "12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, and whole, like those who go 
> down
> to the Pit."
> Sheol, or she'owl is the Hebrew word for hell.

RN (7/1)
Sorry, Luke, you're wrong. Sheol means "grave, death, depths, depths of 
the grave, realm of death" No. 8619 in The NIV Exhaustive Concordance. 
"Sheol. this word is used in the OT for the place of the dead. The 
derivation of the Hebrew word is uncertain." (New Bible Dictionary. 3rd 
ed. Ed. by I. Howard Marshall [et al.])

LN
> How about Isaiah 14:15? Or Ezekiel 32:24? The latter in particular 
> draws a
> contrast between hell and the land of the living.

RN (7/1)
Isaiah 14 is a scornful poem directed at the newly defeated king of 
Babylon, or Lucifer, as the KJV calls him (vs. 14b). "Worms are to be 
your bed, Maggots your blanket" (vs. 11b) doesn't sound like a fiery 
hell to me.

> There are hundreds more quotations I could refer to. I know you have a 
> good
> deal of bible [Bible] knowledge, but if you think that the OT does not 
> include
> heaven and hell, you must have missed some things.

RN (7/1)
I did not say the OT did not include heaven. The OT says it is the 
abode of Yahweh (the LORD) God and the heavenly household (see Job 1:6, 
etc.). I said that not a single person in the OT died and went to 
heaven.

> RN
>> I'm afraid Luke Nieuwsma is mistaken to think that most people act
>> morally only by a bribe of heaven or a threat of hell.
>
LN
> It is not a bribe, it is a gift if  you turn from immorality to 
> Christ. But
> hell is not a threat, it is our just deserts.

RN (7/1)
Many people have died without ever hearing about Christ. Luke, your 
idea that "... hell is not a threat, it is our just deserts" is sick 
and utterly immoral, as judged by the Golden Rule. It is the kind of 
sado-masochism that has been preached by Christians for centuries. It 
is not fit for a civilized society. End of sermon.

A good overview of afterlife ideas in the Bible can be found at

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/future.html