[Vision2020] Why doesn't the Sisterhood learn to shoot?
Tom Hansen
thansen@moscow.com
Mon, 24 Feb 2003 06:01:56 -0800
Greetings Visionaires -
I partially agree with Mr. Moffett in that some people have privilege and
fortune cast upon them without having "earned" either and some people (while
applying concepts of honesty, integrity, fair play, hard work, etc.) have
had to endure life's adverse trials and tribulations over and over again.
To me, it has always been how a person deals with adversity or sudden
privilege and fortune that defines him/her. In some instances a person may
have the option of simply walking away from adeversity. However, I believe
in every person's life they will have to face a circumstance that they
cannot walk away from. How they deal with that circumstance will follow
them through life in one fasion or another.
As one famous poet had once written:
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a man, my son!
That pretty much sums it up.
Take care,
Tom Hansen
Moscow, Idaho
"Life isn't fair, only consistent"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> Behalf Of Ted Moffett
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 12:50 AM
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Cc: dkaag@turbonet.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Why doesn't the Sisterhood learn to shoot?
>
>
>
>
> Don, et. al.
>
> Your insistence on total self determination for adults, with
> people getting
> what they work and pay for, often does not fit the facts of human
> life. No
> one is a self made human being, with DNA, social position and upbringing
> being forces not freely chosen by children. And being an "adult"
> does not
> suddenly confer special powers that create a being of total
> control over the
> forces in life. Many people do not work to get what they have,
> it is handed
> to them on a silver platter. And many other people work their asses off,
> and still get screwed over in one way or another. To deny this
> is to deny
> the facts. The flat out bare bones facts of how unfair and just
> plain cruel
> life can be, or how tremendous privilege and wealth are given
> freely to some
> individuals. No one is totally a controller of their own destiny, and if
> this is the American dream, as you state, well, the world is full of
> dreamers who have them shattered. Of course I am not saying that self
> determination and hard work are not worthwhile values, but they are only
> part of the picture of what constitutes human life.
> You oversimplified the issue of self determination in human life,
> and then
> stated that I will never concede your point about self determination. In
> the way that you stated your point you are right, I will not concede the
> oversimplification you stated. Oversimplifying complex moral and ethical
> issues does not advance a discussion about freedom and self
> determination in
> human life, it is aimed at ending it.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
> >From: Don Kaag <dkaag@turbonet.com>
> >To: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Why doesn't the Sisterhood learn to shoot?
> >Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 06:21:47 -0800
> >
> >Ted:
> >
> >No one can make you a victim if you do not accept victimhood.
> We have laws
> >in this country focused on that. My point, which I am sure that
> you will
> >never concede, is that once a person---male or female---reaches
> adulthood,
> >they are, or ought to be, responsible for their own actions and
> controllers
> >of their own destiny. That's the American dream.
> >
> >It doesn't take physical strength, it doesn't take weapons or karate
> >training. All it takes (Granted, it is a big "all"...) is guts,
> hard work,
> >and an unwillingness to be pushed around. I am sick and tired
> of weenies
> >whining about how the world, or the country, or their religion, or their
> >significant other, push them around and don't recognize their
> "personness".
> >
> >If that's the truth, then they are responsible, as adults with a
> brain, to
> >figure out how to stop it. They've got a brain, they are citizens, with
> >access to a plethora of community support agencies and volunteer groups,
> >they need to get up off of their asses and do something about it, rather
> >than complain about how they are mistreated.
> >
> >And as far as the consequences you have listed---divorce, ostracism,
> >rejection by their religion---here's a hot flash for you. TAANSTAFL.
> >(There is no such thing as a free lunch.) In this world, you
> get what you
> >work for and pay for. That is the same for everyone. If you want
> >something badly, you must be willing to make the trade-offs to make it
> >happen.
> >
> >Don Kaag
> >
> >
> >On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 09:05 PM, Ted Moffett wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >>Don, et. al.
> >>
> >>Speaking of those "blinders" ... did you take them off? Or is
> this more
> >>devils advocacy?
> >>
> >>So women who were raised in and married in a fundamentalist Christian
> >>religion, are supposed to, according to you:
> >>"...organize, take over and change the rules. Or change sects.
> Or start
> >>their own sect. Or stop whining..." Right! They then face possible
> >>divorce from their husbands, ostracism from the community they
> have called
> >>home, and rejection from the God they sincerely believe is the true God
> >>who has ordered through the divine word of the Bible that women
> are to be
> >>obedient to their husbands. Consider the Southern Baptists, for an
> >>example of this approach.
> >>
> >>The options you outline are easy to advocate, difficult to practice.
> >>
> >>Also consider Catholicism. You can forget the "take over and
> change the
> >>rules" possibility. When do you think the Pope will be a
> women? Or that
> >>women will be doing Mass? Patriarchy at it's most institutionalized!
> >>
> >>And it's easy to say but much more difficult to tell someone to abandon
> >>their faith.
> >>
> >>As far as "whining" goes, many of these women DON'T WHINE. But
> that does
> >>NOT mean that men are not a factor in the social forces involved in
> >>influencing these women to neglect competency in self defense.
> And that
> >>these same men do not tell these same women that they will defend them,
> >>don't worry darling!
> >>
> >>This is all I was saying, stating what is a sociological fact, that you
> >>seemed to overlook: men actively are involved in influencing
> many women
> >>to be helpless and dependent, and not only via the influence of male
> >>dominated religion. How many tough macho men just dig defending their
> >>smaller weaker women friends, and tell them as much?
> >>
> >>Are you going to assert that men to not engage in these behaviors?
> >>
> >>The flip side of this psychology involves the opposite behavior of men
> >>defending "helpless" women, but often is oriented toward again inducing
> >>helplessness and powerlessness: the shocking number of women who face
> >>physical violence from men, and if they fight back they just
> get it worse.
> >> Are you aware of the rates of violent rape and domestic
> violence against
> >>women in America? And that much of this violence does induce a
> psychology
> >>of helplessness? Oh, I forgot, women are all expected to be
> super women
> >>karate weapons experts and kick ass, I take it? The military
> solution is
> >>just what America's families need to solve the problems of domestic
> >>violence against women. Give me a break...
> >>
> >>Ted
> >>
> >>_________________________________________________________________
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> >>
>
>
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