[Vision2020] Why doesn't the Sisterhood learn to shoot?

[Ted Moffett]

Don, et. al.

Your insistence on total self determination for adults, with people getting 
what they work and pay for, often does not fit the facts of human life.  No 
one is a self made human being, with DNA, social position and upbringing 
being forces not freely chosen by children.  And being an "adult" does not 
suddenly confer special powers that create a being of total control over the 
forces in life.  Many people do not work to get what they have, it is handed 
to them on a silver platter.  And many other people work their asses off, 
and still get screwed over in one way or another.  To deny this is to deny 
the facts.  The flat out bare bones facts of how unfair and just plain cruel 
life can be, or how tremendous privilege and wealth are given freely to some 
individuals.  No one is totally a controller of their own destiny, and if 
this is the American dream, as you state, well, the world is full of 
dreamers who have them shattered.  Of course I am not saying that self 
determination and hard work are not worthwhile values, but they are only 
part of the picture of what constitutes human life.
You oversimplified the issue of self determination in human life, and then 
stated that I will never concede your point about self determination.  In 
the way that you stated your point you are right, I will not concede the 
oversimplification you stated.  Oversimplifying complex moral and ethical 
issues does not advance a discussion about freedom and self determination in 
human life, it is aimed at ending it.

Ted




>From: Don Kaag <dkaag@turbonet.com>
>To: "Ted Moffett" <ted_moffett@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Why doesn't the Sisterhood learn to shoot?
>Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2003 06:21:47 -0800
>
>Ted:
>
>No one can make you a victim if you do not accept victimhood.  We have laws 
>in this country focused on that.  My point, which I am sure that you will 
>never concede, is that once a person---male or female---reaches adulthood, 
>they are, or ought to be, responsible for their own actions and controllers 
>of their own destiny.  That's the American dream.
>
>It doesn't take physical strength, it doesn't take weapons or karate 
>training.  All it takes (Granted, it is a big "all"...) is guts, hard work, 
>and an unwillingness to be pushed around.  I am sick and tired of weenies 
>whining about how the world, or the country, or their religion, or their 
>significant other, push them around and don't recognize their "personness".
>
>If that's the truth, then they are responsible, as adults with a brain, to 
>figure out how to stop it.  They've got a brain, they are citizens, with 
>access to a plethora of community support agencies and volunteer groups, 
>they need to get up off of their asses and do something about it, rather 
>than complain about how they are mistreated.
>
>And as far as the consequences you have listed---divorce, ostracism, 
>rejection by their religion---here's a hot flash for you.  TAANSTAFL.  
>(There is no such thing as a free lunch.)  In this world, you get what you 
>work for and pay for.  That is the same for everyone.  If you want 
>something badly, you must be willing to make the trade-offs to make it 
>happen.
>
>Don Kaag
>
>
>On Monday, February 17, 2003, at 09:05 PM, Ted Moffett wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Don, et. al.
>>
>>Speaking of those "blinders" ... did you take them off?  Or is this more 
>>devils advocacy?
>>
>>So women who were raised in and married in a fundamentalist Christian 
>>religion, are supposed to, according to you:
>>"...organize, take over and change the rules.  Or change sects.  Or start 
>>their own sect.  Or stop whining..."   Right!  They then face possible 
>>divorce from their husbands, ostracism from the community they have called 
>>home, and rejection from the God they sincerely believe is the true God 
>>who has ordered through the divine word of the Bible that women are to be 
>>obedient to their husbands.  Consider the Southern Baptists, for an 
>>example of this approach.
>>
>>The options you outline are easy to advocate, difficult to practice.
>>
>>Also consider Catholicism.  You can forget the "take over and change the 
>>rules" possibility.  When do you think the Pope will be a women?  Or that 
>>women will be doing Mass?  Patriarchy at it's most institutionalized!
>>
>>And it's easy to say but much more difficult to tell someone to abandon 
>>their faith.
>>
>>As far as "whining" goes, many of these women DON'T WHINE.  But that does 
>>NOT mean that men are not a factor in the social forces involved in 
>>influencing these women to neglect competency in self defense.  And that 
>>these same men do not tell these same women that they will defend them, 
>>don't worry darling!
>>
>>This is all I was saying, stating what is a sociological fact, that you 
>>seemed to overlook:  men actively are involved in influencing many women 
>>to be helpless and dependent, and not only via the influence of male 
>>dominated religion.  How many tough macho men just dig defending their 
>>smaller weaker women friends, and tell them as much?
>>
>>Are you going to assert that men to not engage in these behaviors?
>>
>>The flip side of this psychology involves the opposite behavior of men 
>>defending "helpless" women, but often is oriented toward again inducing 
>>helplessness and powerlessness: the shocking number of women who face 
>>physical violence from men, and if they fight back they just get it worse. 
>>  Are you aware of the rates of violent rape and domestic violence against 
>>women in America?  And that much of this violence does induce a psychology 
>>of helplessness?  Oh, I forgot, women are all expected to be super women 
>>karate weapons experts and kick ass, I take it?  The military solution is 
>>just what America's families need to solve the problems of domestic 
>>violence against women.  Give me a break...
>>
>>Ted
>>
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