[Vision2020] Smells like freedom
Art Deco
deco@moscow.com
Mon, 22 Dec 2003 13:09:53 -0800
Mike,
Please find a decent logic text and study the section on circular arguments.
Your are assuming what you are trying to prove.
W.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Lawyer" <mike_l@moscow.com>
To: <vision2020@moscow.com>
Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 11:41 AM
Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Smells like freedom
> Joan wrote:
> "It's all a matter of faith, isn't it?"
>
> To which I respond: Not really. Everyone has faith. What or whom we have
> faith in is the issue. We all live our lives based on what we think about
> life and consequences and death. The question is, Is the god in whom you
> have placed your faith worthy of it? And how do you know?
>
> We want things to be simple. "You believe what you believe and I'll
believe
> what I believe" sounds good until either someone wants to act on what they
> believe and it bothers someone else (murder, rape, etc.), or someone
brings
> up the notion of truth. Everyone getting along, believing what they want,
is
> fine until someone notices that despite the evolutionary notion of
> relativity, some things are true and therefore some things are not.
Nothing
> that matters is simple.
>
> Faith is a word that shows belief or trust in something (an idea or
notion)
> or someone (parents, God, etc.). We have faith in X. Or we believe in X.
Or
> we put our trust in X. X being whatever or whoever our god is. Joan and
> others put their trust or faith in their own abilities and strengths, or
in
> politics, or their religion, or whatever. I put my trust and faith in the
> God of the Bible.
>
> I prefer to put my faith in the God who created what I see around me,
> including that old fellow I see when I look in the mirror. God is worthy,
of
> my trust. This is not because I believe it, that would be fideism (faith
in
> faith). And believing something doesn't make it so (despite those folks
who
> think that visualizing world peace will accomplish anything). I believe in
> the God of the Bible because he has been faithful throughout all of
history.
>
> The Bible tells us that "faith is the substance of things hoped for, the
> evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11). It then goes on to list a
number
> of Biblical characters who lived their lives trusting in the love and
mercy
> of God. The point of the whole chapter is to tell the reader that God has
> been faithful throughout history and is therefore worthy of our trust. We
do
> not believe simply because we want to, but because he is one who is worthy
> of trust because he is faithful to do what he says he will do. I believe
in
> a trustworthy God.
>
> Another thought along these same lines that springs to mind because of the
> season, is the fact of Christmas. God was not only faithful to his people
in
> the Old Testament of the Bible, but he proved his faithfulness in what we
> call the New Testament. God promised that he would come to earth and live
as
> a man to save his people from their sins. We sing about it every year when
> we say, "Joy to the world the Lord has come." Or "Hark the herald angels
> sing, glory to the new born king." Or "Come to Bethlehem and see Him whose
> birth the angels sing; Come, adore on bended knee Christ, the Lord, the
> new-born King." Or "...Peace on the earth, good will to men, From heaven's
> all gracious King! The world in solemn stillness lay, To hear the angels
> sing."
>
> We know it is true because the Bible says Jesus was the God the king of
the
> world before he came into the world. We know that he came into the world
to
> save his people from their sins. We know that Jesus saved his people by
> dying on their behalf (and this is love). We know that it is all true
> because Jesus rose from the dead on the third day. We know that it is true
> because Jesus is now seated in the throne room of Heaven and he rules us
now
> in a much more glorious way than he did before. We know it is true because
> nothing else we see around us makes any other sense.
>
> And because it is true and God is God and we are not, I choose to put my
> faith in the one who is faithful and trustworthy.
>
> Merry Christmas all,
>
> Mike Lawyer
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com] On
> Behalf Of Joan Opyr
> Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 12:44 AM
> To: vision2020@moscow.com
> Subject: [Vision2020] Smells like freedom
>
>
> Mike tells us:
>
> >But invariably doing your own thing means leaving the things that were
> >wholesome and beautiful and wonderful and trading them in on something
> >false
> >and selfish. And so the Israelites became decedent and evil. They said
> >right
> >was wrong and good was bad. They said and did whatever they thought they
> >ought to do with no thought about what God had in mind.
> >
> >After a few years of this, God gave them over to the lusts of their
hearts
> >and minds and they sinned until it stunk up the place. Finally, God grew
> >tired of this outright rebellion and turned the nation over to their
> >enemies. In each case foreign nations came in and destroyed the nation of
> >Israel, carting off their women, destroying their cities, enslaving their
> >people.
>
> So, what's the message here? Do what God says or he'll kill you? You'll
> excuse me if I find that unappealing. Nevertheless, I want to thank you,
> Mike, for so ably illustrating the absolute necessity for freedom of
> religion. You can believe this, and I'll believe . . . something else.
>
> It might surprise you to learn that I am quite familiar with the Bible,
> particularly the King James Version. It features some glaring
inaccuracies
> in translation, but it's also quite pretty in places. I especially like
the
>
> psalms. I do not, however, take the KJV Bible, or any other Bible, for
the
> literal and unerring word of God. I choose instead to make room for my
own
> intuition. And I'm free to do that, just as you're free to believe that
the
>
> Bible is clear, consistent, and error-free.
>
> It's all a matter of faith, isn't it?
>
> Joan Opyr/Auntie Establishment
>
> PS: I wonder which sins are the smelliest? I mean, what would I have to
do
> -- eat beans, stop changing my socks, switch to one of those deoderant
> crystals -- to really stink up the place? Living my life as I see fit, in
> accordance with my own beliefs and conscience, and recognizing that
everyone
>
> else is free to do the same; that smells pretty sweet to me.
>
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