[Vision2020] Gay Marriage, Heaven and Body Count

Ted Moffett ted_moffett@hotmail.com
Sat, 09 Aug 2003 22:05:33 +0000


Douglas wants us to consider whether or not people who do not believe in 
"heaven" have killed and molested more than those who do.  How does this 
exactly relate to gay marriage rights?  Oh, of course, if you do not believe 
in a religious view that includes "heaven," there is no foundation for human 
rights:  we are all adrift in a world of malicious chaotic moral relativism.

Apparently the belief that God could be a source of absolute moral codes, 
and construct the universe accordingly, without "heaven" involved in the 
equation, is an impossibility?

No proof exists that this is impossible, just like no proof exists that some 
human religions' are not the result of a vast sociology experiment conducted 
by unimaginably advanced intelligent beings from some other part of the 
galaxy, who occasionally have visited to blow earthlings minds' with 

Douglas lists various atrocities committed by those who imagine there is no 
"heaven," making a mockery of a pop song by John Lennon.

I won't argue the factual seriousness of what Douglas asserts, though 
Germany was predominately Christian at the time of the Holocaust.  People of 
many different ideologies and religions have committed atrocities.

But given that absolutist extremist religions exploiting belief in "heaven" 
have often in history provided ideological cover and psychological solace to 
facilitate atrocities, Douglas does his worldview a disservice when inviting 
a "body count" argument.

Moral codes throughout the world from many different religions declare 
murder morally wrong.
The implication that we must believe in one religion only, or we are lost to 
moral chaos and anarchy, does not fit the facts of human conduct.

What great harm will result from allowing gay marriage?  Will this lead to 
the slaughter of millions in ruthless bloodletting with all moral standards 
voided?  Is this what Douglas is implying?  It would seem so.


>From: Douglas <dougwils@moscow.com>
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
>Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 09:48:10 -0700
>Sunil says:
>Clearly you don't understand that when the other party goes nuclear and 
>unleashes a WMD like 'Says who?' the only thing one can do is slowly back 
>away and be grateful that you weren't completely destroyed by the strength 
>of the opposing argument.
>This can only be understood as a facile playground response, and not an 
>argument, if in fact the authority behind the initial claims is well known 
>to all. In that case, the best response would be to answer the question.
>"Don't touch that electric fence, Billy!"
>"Says who?"
>Lots of good answers could go in here.
>"All the best electricians." "Mom" "Rancher Smith." et al. In this universe 
>of discourse, such an appeal to limited authorities is quite legitimate and 
>Now, when people on this forum issue sweeping and *universally* obligatory 
>imperatives (denouncing racism, say, or whooping up human rights, and 
>insisting that all are morally obligated to agree, conform, and burn 
>candles on their altar), what is the common authority, binding on us all, 
>that obligates us to obey?
>Let's keep it simple. Check one of the following.
>____ All are morally obligated to acknowledge the inviolability of human 
>____ All are not morally obligated to acknowledge the inviolability of 
>human rights.
>Check one of the sentences above. And if someone else wants to check the 
>other one, and you challenge him, and he says, "Says who?" a decent respect 
>for those who know how to follow an argument should require that you answer 
>the question. Imagine there's no heaven. Its easy if you try. It sure is -- 
>above the killing fields of Cambodia, above German concentration camps, 
>above the abortion clinics, above the Stalinist famine in Georgia, above 
>the Aztec pyramids covered in human blood, above the bedroom of a 
>nine-year-old girl being molested by her mother's boy friend -- only sky.
>Douglas Wilson
>List services made available by First Step Internet, serving the 
>communities of the Palouse since 1994.                 http://www.fsr.net   
>                              mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com

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