[Vision2020] Re: Constitutional Ban on Gay Marriage
Joshua Nieuwsma
joshuahendrik@yahoo.com
Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:54:53 -0700 (PDT)
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Mr. Arnold,
You are funny. Sometimes I think you can't truly believe what you write and are just playing around with phrases and things. You contradict your positions and yourself and make weird connections and, also, disconnections about what we Christians say. It's as if I say that the only foundation of morals is the Bible, and you infer that therefore I don't believe in basic rights of mankind.
The reason you don't need the bible to tell you not to sleep with a donkey, (though if you were consistent with your support of homos, you would recognize that there is very little difference between that and sleeping with a donkey, and you would support beastiality almost as heartily), is because God designed morals into the very fabric of our existence. But if you don't want to use the Bible, and if you also deny all other external places where some sort of morality is defined, then where do you get this boiled down sugar-water? Your morality tree has no roots. And a tree that has no roots is not a tree, but a dead branch ready to be cast into the fire. Can't you see that? Who cares about the other person? What does Darwin say? Survival of the fittest. There's no room for a universal moral standard there.
Mr. Arnold, if anything I do infringes upon the supposed rights, privileges, freedoms, health, liberties, or property of another person, what is that to you? Why do you care if there is wickedness in Liberia or murder in Bosnia? I care because God hates it when the rich and powerful mistreat, rob, steal, and otherwise harm the poor and destitute, the fatherless, and the widow. But you don't have God, therefore you can't hate it. You can only assert that morals are needed because everyone needs morals. And yes, I know that I am nearly as circular, because Scripture is my ultimate authority. But I go to something outside myself. You have nowhere to go but your personal, internal, and may I say God given understanding of certain aspects of morality. But you're not transcendent, so neither can your morality be.
cheers,
Joshua Nieuwsma
p.s. can you seriously think of one thing, besides such things as brushing your teeth, that doesn't in some way infringe upon your boiled sugar-water rule? Seems to me one of the glories of Christianity is that people's "rights" (by your definition anyhow) are infringed all the time. True freedom is learning that the rope of law is really a merciful, grace-filled safety harness.
Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:
Luke,
You are funny. Sometimes I think you can't believe what you write and are just playing around. You make assumptions about my positions and me and make wierd conections about what I say. It is like I say we should water plants and you infer that I want all trees to be cut down and removed from the earth. Such strong streches of the imagination, it is like you are talking to someone else and not a part of the same conversation.
I don't need the Bible or the Quran, or any other book or writting to tell me that hurting other people is wrong, or to treat them as less is wrong. I guess you do need to read the old testiment to know not to sleep with a donkey or to sleep with your mother.
Luke, It all boils down to one rule:
"If it doesn't infringe upon the rights, freedoms, health, life, liberties, or property of another person, let them do it."
Donovan J Arnold
---------------------------------
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<DIV>
<DIV>Mr. Arnold,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You are funny. Sometimes I think you can't truly believe what you write and are just playing around with phrases and things. You contradict your positions and yourself and make weird connections and, also, disconnections about what we Christians say. It's as if I say that the only foundation of morals is the Bible, and you infer that therefore I don't believe in basic rights of mankind. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The reason you don't need the bible to tell you not to sleep with a donkey, (though if you were consistent with your support of homos, you would recognize that there is very little difference between that and sleeping with a donkey, and you would support beastiality almost as heartily), is because God designed morals into the very fabric of our existence. But if you don't want to use the Bible, and if you also deny all other external places where some sort of morality is defined, then where do you get this boiled down sugar-water? Your morality tree has no roots. And a tree that has no roots is not a tree, but a dead branch ready to be cast into the fire. Can't you see that? Who cares about the other person? What does Darwin say? Survival of the fittest. There's no room for a universal moral standard there. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Mr. Arnold, if anything I do infringes upon the supposed rights, privileges, freedoms, health, liberties, or property of another person, what is that to you? Why do you care if there is wickedness in Liberia or murder in Bosnia? I care because God hates it when the rich and powerful mistreat, rob, steal, and otherwise harm the poor and destitute, the fatherless, and the widow. But you don't have God, therefore you can't hate it. You can only assert that morals are needed because everyone needs morals. And yes, I know that I am nearly as circular, because Scripture is my ultimate authority. But I go to something outside myself. You have nowhere to go but your personal, internal, and may I say <EM>God</EM> <EM>given</EM> understanding of certain aspects of morality. But you're not transcendent, so neither can your morality be.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>cheers,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Joshua Nieuwsma</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>p.s. can you seriously think of one thing, besides such things as brushing your teeth, that doesn't in some way infringe upon your boiled sugar-water rule? Seems to me one of the glories of Christianity is that people's "rights" (by your definition anyhow) are infringed all the time. True freedom is learning that the rope of law is really a merciful, grace-filled safety harness.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV><BR><BR><B><I>Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com></I></B> wrote:
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P>Luke,</P>
<P>You are funny. Sometimes I think you can't believe what you write and are just playing around. You make assumptions about my positions and me and make wierd conections about what I say. It is like I say we should water plants and you infer that I want all trees to be cut down and removed from the earth. Such strong streches of the imagination, it is like you are talking to someone else and not a part of the same conversation.</P>
<P>I don't need the Bible or the Quran, or any other book or writting to tell me that hurting other people is wrong, or to treat them as less is wrong. I guess you do need to read the old testiment to know not to sleep with a donkey or to sleep with your mother. </P>
<P>Luke, It all boils down to one rule:</P>
<P>"If it doesn't infringe upon the rights, freedoms, health, life, liberties, or property of another person, let them do it."</P>
<P>Donovan J Arnold</P></DIV></DIV></DIV><p><hr SIZE=1>
Do you Yahoo!?<br>
<a href="http://us.rd.yahoo.com/evt=10469/*http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com">Yahoo! SiteBuilder</a> - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
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