[Vision2020] Re: Second coming of Jesus

[Joshua Gibbs]

Ralph,

I'll ask you this honestly and openly for the third time. If I believe what 
you believe, how will it put joy in my life? Also, as far as a day to day 
living aspect is concerned, how does your view of life and the world make 
you happier? Mind it, I don't need to know about self-deception and 
organized religion. I know what's wrong with modern Christianity. I want to 
know how your beliefs will help my life be more enjoyable. I know you must 
have a better reason to hold your beliefs than just to smirk at Campus 
Crusade kids passing out leaflets. So what is it?

Mad love,
Josh


>From: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu>
>To: vision2020@moscow.com
>Subject: [Vision2020] Re: Second coming of Jesus
>Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:35:47 -0700
>
>>
>>From: Douglas Stambler <ccm_moscow@yahoo.com>
>>Date: Sat Aug 2, 2003  3:07:37 PM US/Pacific
>>To: Ralph Nielsen <nielsen@uidaho.edu>, vision2020@moscow.com
>>Subject: [Vision2020] Second coming of Jesus: Response to R. Nielsen
>>
>>
>>Ralph:
>> 
>>Christ is real and alive today!  There's no doubt about that.  And there 
>>is nothing that anyone can do to convince you of that, you have to try it 
>>yourself.  Ask Jesus to come into your life today, and you will notice 
>>that your life improves, and that your burdens will be lifted, too.  No 
>>one knows exactly when Christ will come again, and I don't think that you 
>>really care about that.  I think what you're after is for God to show 
>>Himself to you.
>> 
>>Again, ask Christ into your life today, and you will feel the difference.
>> 
>>In Christ,
>>Douglas Stambler
>
>RALPH NIELSEN
>	I'm talking about the historical Jesus who was supposedly carried up into 
>the sky and who promised to come down out of the sky again while some of 
>his contemporaries were still alive. Douglas, you are talking about an 
>imaginary companion.
>
>>
>RALPH NIELSEN (earlier)
>>The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal" issue
>>only to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest
>>writer in the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for
>>an imminent return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them
>>were still alive. Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with
>>a judgment in the year 70, simply doesn't agree with the book of
>>Revelation, for example, where the judgment is yet to come. Most
>>scholars agree that Revelation was written around the year 100.
>>They also agree that the epistle of 2 Peter was not written by Peter,
>>but was a late attempt at damage control when Jesus had not yet shown
>>up as predicted. And ever since then, Christians looking for a magical
>>solution to all the world's troubles have had to pretend that Jesus,
>>Paul, et. al., either did not mean what they said or did not say what
>>they meant. Dale is correct that many books have been written over the
>>centuries attempting to rationalize this fact.
>
>>RALPH NIELSEN 
>> >The question of the Second Coming of Jesus becomes a "doctrinal" issue 
>>only
>> >to those who refuse to face the fact that both Paul, the earliest writer 
>>in
>> >the New Testament, and most of the others as well, looked for an 
>>imminent
>> >return of Jesus out of the clouds while nearly all of them were still 
>>alive.
>> >Dale's claim that the Parousia was in two parts, with a judgment in the 
>>year
>> >70, simply doesn't agree with the book of Revelation, for example, where 
>>the
>> >judgment is yet to come. Most scholars agree that Revelation was written
>> >around the year 100.
>
>>From: "Dale Courtney" <dale@courtneys.us>
>>Nielsen, you still have a lot more homework to do.
>> 
>>First, your "late date" of 100 AD is held by "some" contemporary 
>>researchers. However, the vast majority of scholars thru history have 
>>disagreed with you and your 100 AD date. In fact, the vast majority have 
>>dated Revelation before 70 AD. If you would like, I can provide you 
>>(off-list) with a 15-page bibliography listing scholars who have disagreed 
>>with you over the past 2,000 years. Bottom line: all the internal and 
>>external evidence points to an early date (prior to 70 AD). The reason for 
>>pushing the date to later isn't for scholarly purposes but to support a 
>>different agenda.
>> 
>>Second, you need to study up more on Hebrew apocalyptic literature and see 
>>what it means to come in the clouds. Understanding apocalyptic genre is 
>>not like reading a Harry Potter book.
>> 
>>Third, there is a significant difference between a coming in judgment and 
>>a physical coming. That distinction shouldn't be lost on you. Again, I 
>>refer you to the apocalyptic writings of the Hebrew Prophets where they 
>>speak of judgment comings.
>> 
>>Finally, if you are *really* interested in knowing, contact me off-list -- 
>>vision2020 is not a forum for theological debates. Since you haven't done 
>>so, I'm assuming that you don't *really* care to know, and that your 
>>agenda lies elsewhere.
>
>RALPH NIELSEN
>	Recent scholars generally agree that Revelation was written around the 
>year 95 (Adela Yarbro Collins, David E. Aune (both of whom I have 
>personally contacted) and others). But whenever it was written there is no 
>doubt that Jesus, Paul, and many early Christians believed that what we 
>call the first century was supposed to have been the last century. But 
>nothing happened, the prophecies failed, just as similar prophecies, held 
>by the Millerites, Latter-day Saints, and Jehovah's Witnesses have also 
>failed. I prophesy that Jesus will not come again in your time or mine 
>either. No matter how many Left Behind books or Late Great Planet Earth 
>books are written, he will not show up.
>	Incidentally, Dale, a recent study concludes that frequent masturbation by 
>young men in their twenties helps to prevent prostate problems in their 
>later years.

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