[Vision2020] Don't Blame Nader! (was Stop corporate tax dodging)

[Mike Curley]

<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>Bob and Ted (sorry, I cannot put both =
posts together): 

As I said to someone off list, I agree with Ralph Nader's  
principles, and particularly the glaring need for election  
reform both nationally and by states.  And, I did not say  
that he caused Gore to lose the election--but he was a  
contributing cause.   Bob, I agree with the logic of your 
schoolyard example, but it doesn't apply to the situation I 
described.  In law, cause is often determined by a  "but 
for" test.  There may be several events or causes that  
coincide to create a certain outcome.  Take away any one 
 of those causes and the outcome is different.  One of  
many "but for's" of the last national election was Ralph  
Nader--"but for" his insistence on staying in the race, Gore  
would have won.  His insistence that there "is no  
difference between Gore and Bush" MAY have been an 
additional contributing factor to Gore's loss.  I think the 
latter  statement clearly put Nader's desire to run a 
campaign  above the truth.  I believe he very clearly knew 
there  would be differences between a Bush presidency 
and a  Gore presidency--and that a Gore presidency would 
more  likely advance the causes and issues that Nader 
supported.  So, in that instance I believe he put politics 
and  self-aggrandizement above truth and his own 
principles.   

Further, and more to the point of the actual election  
outcome, he knew that he would not win the election, he  
knew that his candidacy would be favorable to a Bush  
win, he knew a Bush win would be anathema to his  
causes, and he was given several opportunities for  
positions of power and influence where his causes could  
and would be promoted far more significantly than a Bush 
 victory would provide--or for that matter, even a Gore  
victory where Nader had remained a ballot foe and thus 
had jeaopardized that victory.   

Yes, Nader stood  "on his principles"--to, in my thinking,  
the detriment of those principles and his ability to <underline>actually</=
underline>  
make a difference with them, although not necessarily to  
any personal detriment.  Thus, I thought he put himself  
above the principles he espouses--hence, "Prince Ralph."   
The reference to King George, Ted, should be fairly  
obvious given his lack of mandate by vote count, his pre- 
election protestations of being "moderate," and the post- 
election hawkish, anti-environment, corporate pillaging,  
and infringement of individual liberties positions he and  
his adminstration have advanced.  I thought perhaps the  
hyperbole was apparent, Ted, as in a political cartoon-- 
which is to some degree how I see all three of the  
aforementioned characters at this point. 

Mike Curley 



On 20 Apr 03, at 18:01, Bob Hoffmann wrote: 


<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>To:             	<color><param>0000,00=
00,8000</param>vision2020@moscow.com<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> 

From:           	<color><param>0000,0000,8000</param>Bob Hoffmann <<escape=
@alt-
escape.com><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> 

<bold>Subject:        	<color><param>0000,0000,8000</param>Re: [Vision2020=
] Don't Blame Nader! 
(was Stop corporate tax</bold><color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> 

<bold> 	<color><param>0000,0000,8000</param>dodging)</bold><color><param>0=
000,0000,0000</param> 

Date sent:      	<color><param>0000,0000,8000</param>Sun, 20 Apr 2003 18:0=
1:05 -0700<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param> 


<underline><color><param>0000,8000,0000</param>[ Double-click this line fo=
r list subscription options ]</underline><color><param>0000,0000,0000</par=
am>  


At 08:39 AM 4/20/2003 +0000, Mike Curley wrote: 

<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>>There are certainly 

>many reasons that Al Gore is not the President, but 
Prince 

>Ralph can claim a primary role (no pun intended).  And 

>while you are there, thank him for the war in Iraq and 

>wherever else the USA may next invade in the name of 

>weapons of mass destruction and terrorism. 


<color><param>0000,0000,0000</param>Yup, I'd like to chime in on this one =
as well.  Mike, I 

don't think you would ever accept this logic on a  
playground 

or in a classroom:  "One child did something wrong, and  
we 

can blame another child for it."  Al Gore couldn't win the 

election in his own state, and Nader is not to blame for 

that.  George Bush decided to go to war against Iraq, and 
he 

is responsible for his decision on that.  End of story. 


Of course, if this country ran its elections like European 

parliamentary democracies, Gore would likely be 
president, 

and Nader would then be secretary of the interior.  But we 

live in a country where you can be president with 40% of 
the 

popular vote (which is about what Clinton got the first 

time).  Democracy?  Doesn't seem like a democratic 
structure 

to me. 


Bob Hoffmann 

820 S. Logan St. 

Moscow, ID  83843 


Tel: 208 883-0642  


____________________________________________________
_ 

 List services made available by First Step Internet,  

 serving the communities of the Palouse since 1994.    

               http://www.fsr.net                        

          mailto:Vision2020@moscow.com 

=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=AF=
=AF=AF
=AF