[Vision2020] Hate Crime on the Palouse
Tim Lohrmann
timlohr@yahoo.com
Sat, 5 Apr 2003 11:09:40 -0800 (PST)
Donovan,
OK, OK so now I'm not only a bigot, I'm an
egocentric arrogant bigot! Wow, if we keep this
exchange up you'll get a real collection of ad hominem
attacks, huh?
But let's put your fascination with childish
name-calling aside for a moment, shall we?
Regarding the flag incident, we were discussing
the punishment.
I thought it fit the crime, you apparently don't.
But you won't say what SHOULD have been done to those
fellows. Just that they were bad, bad, bad. Well, the
UI and the county had to go beyond judgmentalism and
finger wagging such as yours, and actually find a
punishment that fit. It was their responsibility.
Again, what would YOU have them do? You whine and
wail, but still won't say.
Your criticism of what you consider to be my
narrow minded, bigoted, egocentric, arrogant(gee did I
leave anything out?) :) attitude towards punishing
crime is due to your willingness to see hate crime
anywhere and to require little or no evidence to
charge other citizens with it. We can all have
opinions, but you have to have evidence to say a crime
was committed, that's just how it is. You find society
scary NOW?
Wait until police can go around making arrests based
on someone's 'feeeeeeelings.'
You've backtracked on most all of your original
assertions that we discussed. So that's cool.
The hanging in the arboreteum is now "SOCIETY'S
FAULT." Ok, maybe the guy should have better
psychological care. So why did you say it was a HATE
CRIME when it wasn't? That's what this was all about.
Also, on the murder that you asserted was a hate
crime--you apparently have much more info. than
most--having known and had family connection to the
victim. But you have nothing other than your
disappointment and your near-religious need to believe
that this crime was of the hate variety to support
your original statement that it was.
So, I guess the bottom line is that you want and
need to see hate everywhere. Have fun. I guess it will
give some steam to your social and or political
causes. Until your audience finds out you're not being
rtruthful of course.
However, I've got to say, now that you've admitted
that your original HATE-CRIME FREAK-OUT was really not
true the topic is nearing exhaustion. I mean I'm
sure we could analyze it over and over but I think
it's about time to call it quits.
Especially because of the ridiculous and childish
name-calling and plain untruth you continue to direct
towards me.
Here's a sample from your last post where you wrote
this about me:
>"According to you:
> stalking, verbal threats of violence, sexual
> harassment, public flashing,
> and trespassing, are not crimes if the only crime
> has to result in something
> you can see."
This is total fabrication on your part, and there's
little need to continue a discussion with someone who
will make up such tripe. Of course, I never said
anything approaching the above and you know it.
But it is illustrative of what our whole discussion
has been about. Making things up(as you did above,and
in our original HATE CRIME LIST) using only your
personal 'feeeeeelings' to support serious charges,
and searching constantly for victimhood don't help
your credibility much.
Just as you have in this discussion, eventually you'll
have to admit that what you said was simply untrue.
Best,
TL
--- Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Tim,
>
> It is clear that we function on different
> wavelengths. You never see
> discrimination unless it is screaming in your face.
> I don't try to find it,
> I see it everywhere, from our way of thinking,our
> use of our language, the
> people we elect (local to the top), the actions we
> take, to people that
> don't question why minorities are about twice to
> three times as likely to
> kill them.
>
> What I was saying about the boy who hung himself is
> that it doesn't matter
> if he was physically forced to hang, or if the
> attitudes and treatment by
> other people around him around caused him to be so
> depressed that he killed
> himself. Either way, he was murdered in eyes.
>
> As far as the boys that burnt the flag goes:
>
> The punishment should have been that they not be
> able to participate in
> extra curricular activities, that they pay for the
> court trial, and do
> community service for the damage that they caused
> the gay community.
>
> You wrote:
>
> "No
> >murder, no assault, no injuries. It seems to me
> that
> >many college transgressions are treated similarly."
>
> Try putting yourself in someone else's shoes, just
> once,
>
> Let me put it to you this way. Imagine that you are
> visiting a University
> that is in a nation that hates Americans. Your
> office is broken into by
> elected officials that took an oath to protect your
> rights, and your
> American flag is taken to a party where 5-10 people
> participate in the
> burning of your American Flag. They then lie about.
> Meanwhile, at a nearby
> University somebody sprays the words "Kill
> Americans" in bright red paint on
> the side of building. Meanwhile, you heard of a
> story of a missing American
> a few years ago whose body was found in woods. Would
> you feel safe? What
> would you say to people that said "oh, it was a
> bunch of drunk kids that
> were goofing off". Would you be justified in being
> angry, fearful, or upset?
> Furthermore, how would you feel if these same people
> were allowed to run for
> office again, only spent three days in jail, and got
> to go to law school?
>
> Is this fair, you tell me? Because that is the same
> situation that the gay
> community was facing, and that is exactly why I
> supported them and Selena
> Lloyde who was Chair of the Gay-Straight Alliance at
> the time.
>
> It really scares me that you think the only damage
> that can be done is as
> you wrote:
>
> "No
> >murder, no assault, no injuries. It seems to me
> that
> >many college transgressions are treated similarly."
>
> This is where I find you arrogant of what harm can
> be. According to you:
> stalking, verbal threats of violence, sexual
> harassment, public flashing,
> and trespassing, are not crimes if the only crime
> has to result in something
> you can see. There is other forms of "damage" that
> can occur in a society to
> groups and individual members. The majority of these
> victims are usually
> women and minorities and they continue because they
> encounter people that
> think like you. No physical damage, then no proof,
> no proof, no harm. You
> think you are a self contained problem solving
> machine. You don't need to
> hear the viewpoints of others, or consider their
> situations, their
> individual circumstances, what you know is enough to
> understand everything.
> This is the danger of society since the beginning,
> it is called egocentrism.
> No others thoughts,feelings, or beliefs have
> credibility to you unless
> someone can physically proof them to you. Think
> about it Tom, do you have
> the capability to look at something in someone
> else's shoes,in a wheelchair,
> blind, gay, Muslim, Jewish, poor, rich, anyone's, I
> don't think you can.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Tim Lohrmann <timlohr@yahoo.com>
> >To: Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>
> >CC: vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on the Palouse
> >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 22:40:25 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Donovan,
> > I didn't say anything about someone's being
> drunk
> >excuses anything they do--you said that. Drunk or
> not,
> >they deserved punishment for their acts.
> > You go through a lot of extraneous detail, but
> the
> >bottom line is you and I simply disagree. You think
> >the punishment was inadequate I thought it fit the
> >crime. Which at the bottom line, let's face it
> >resulted in the destruction of a flat. That's it.
> No
> >murder, no assault, no injuries. It seems to me
> that
> >many college transgressions are treated similarly.
> >What would you have done to these guys? Years in
> >prison? Castration? What?
> >
> > I see that you did know the fellow that was
> >apparently murdered and that some evidence was
> found
> >or spoiled.
> > However, you don't mention anything that
> makes
> >it into a hate crime--that's what we were
> discussing.
> >
> > I didn't really understand what you wrote
> about
> >the fellow who hung himself. Do you now believe
> there
> >was a chance it was NOT a lynching? If so, why did
> you
> >say it was? I don't get it. If there was a
> possibility
> >that he was just unhappy and NOT lynched, as you
> >mentioned, why would you say positively that he was
> >killed by some hater, as you did originally?
> > Anyway, the bottom line is you think I'm a
> bigot
> >because I would rather look at and find the reasons
> >for a crime rather than just scream "HATE!" anytime
> >anything unpleasant happens.
> >That's your right, call me anything you
> want--except
> >late for dinner.
> >It just seems counterproductive to always see
> demons
> >where there's no reason to believe they exist.
> Don't
> >forget the little boy who cried wolf.
> > TL
> >
> >--- Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > TL,
> > >
> > > Actually, I don't think you understand much at
> > > all. I personally know all
> > > four of the guys that were involved with the
> flag
> > > burning incident. Kasey
> > > Swisher, Kevin Smith, Matt Henman, and Joel
> > > Sturgill. I was the ASUI Senator
> > > that told on them. I was with them about five
> hours
> > > before they went and
> > > burned the flag. I was a senator at the time and
> was
> > > the one that called the
> > > press.
> > >
> > > Why? It wasn't because it was the flag at all.
> It
> > > was because they used
> > > their positions of authority and privilege of
> access
> > > to steal student
> > > property, destroy it, and used their positions
> to
> > > cover it up. Had they not
> > > lied about it and covered it up then it would
> not
> > > have been that big of a
> > > deal had they come clean. I told them two hours
> > > before I called the press
> > > that if they came out and confessed I would help
> > > them through it. They said
> > > no that they would not publicly admit to it. And
> > > they threatened me not to
> > > say anything, but I didn't care. It is bullshit
> > > (pardon my french) for them
> > > to try to get away with such an abusive act.
> > >
> > > Kevin Smith lied that he still had the flag to a
> > > police officer, and the
> > > threatening of a charge of "obstruction of
> justice"
> > > was the only thing that
> > > got him to go get the flag from his bedroom.
> > >
> > > Their punishment was a weekend in jail,
> probation
> > > and an apology. I know
> > > much more then the paper prints about this. Nor
> do I
> > > hate the individuals
> > > that did this, just what they did.
> > >
> > > In terms of them being drunk, well geez, is that
> > > really an excuse when it is
> > > a crime for them to drink anyway? Is rape ok
> when
> > > drunk, is killing a
> > > pedestrian when drunk ok? Absolutely not, being
> > > drunk is absolutely no
> > > excuse EVER!
> > >
> > > I also doubt they were that drunk, considering
> the
> > > complicated act of
> > > walking all the way from SAE House to the
> Commons,
> > > putting your card into a
> > > slot, then going to the third floor, using your
> card
> > > again, walking down the
> > > hall way, grabbing the flag, then walking all
> the
> > > way back to SAE, going to
> > > the third floor with nobody seeing the flag in a
> > > house full of 100 people,
> > > then climbing through a small window, burning
> the
> > > flag, then taking it to a
> > > far away dumpster to dispose of it, then later
> > > returning to the dumpster,
> > > walking all the way back to your house, and then
> > > hiding it in your room.
> > > Gee, sounds like they were really wasted! Smart
> > > enough and coordinated
> > > enough to do all that, cover up the crime, and
> not
> > > smart enough to realize
> > > what they were doing was wrong? You will buy
> > > anything won't you TL?
> > >
> > >
> > > In terms of the gay indian boy that disappeared
> and
> > > the body was found,
> > > well, my sister was his neighbor at the time,
> and
> > > friend, he worked for my
> > > uncle, and my sister and friends saw him just
> before
> > > he disappeared. So yes,
> > > I know first hand information about that. The
> police
> > > at the time ruined the
> > > evidence because they refused to investigate the
> > > issue until about five days
> > > after his disappearance. So all the evidence is
> > > gone, the police blew it
> > > off, and because of it, a murder will most
> likely
> > > never be solved unless
> > > forensic scientists can find something where his
> > > body has been dumped. When
> > > a shoe is found on the Moscow-Pullman hi-way, it
> is
> > > a strong freaking clue
> > > that he did not get lost in the woods, lie down,
> and
> > > die.
> > >
> > > In terms of the boy that hung himself, well, I
> am
> > > sure he was just really
> > > happy about his life here and his treatment by
> other
> > > colleagues that caused
> > > him to just want to live. Either that or he was
> a
> > > manic depressive and
> > > everyone was really nice to him. Either way,
> > > something went wrong. Just
> > > because the police rule something doesn't mean
> it is
> > > fact. When I was going
> > > to Moscow High School half the police force only
> had
> > > GED's. Not the best
> > > education for investigating homicide.
> > >
> > > Tom, this is a small town and I know what I am
> > > talking about, my family has
> > > been here a long time. The Moscow Cemetry holds
> my
> > > Grandfather, Great
> > > Grandfather,Great Grandmother, as well as dozens
> of
> > > cousins, aunts, great
> > > aunts,and a whole host of other relatives.
> > >
> > > Donovan Arnold
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: Tim Lohrmann <timlohr@yahoo.com>
> > > >To: Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>
> > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on the
> Palouse
> > > >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:59:24 -0800 (PST)
> > > >
> > > >Donavan,
> > > >Actually, I understood that a couple of the
> guys
> > > >involved in this flag deal were suspended and
> spent
> > > >some time in the Latah Co. jail.
> > > > I'm not sure what you'd have UI do. Should
> it be
> > > >prison time for attempting to burn a flag and
> then
> > > >throwing it in a dumpster? Or should we tatoo a
> red
> > > >letter on them? What?
> > > > Boorish and childish behavior, yes.
> > > > But let's let the punishment fit the crime.
> > > These
> > > >guys didn't kill anyone, nor was anyone hurt.
> They
> > > got
> > > >drunk and acted like idiots and have been
> punished
> > > for
> > > >it--despite your refusal to believe it.
> > > >
> > > >As for the guy found hanging in the arboreteum,
> the
> > > >police looked into the case and determined it
> was a
> > > >suicide. But from what you wrote in one of the
> > > other
> > > >posts, you would assume it was a hate-lynching
> > > unless
> > > >it is proven otherwise. Suicides are tragic
> enough
> > > >without assuming some grand conspiracy every
> time
> > > one
> > > >occurs. You mentioned there were no witnesses.
> The
> > > >police also determined that there was no
> evidence
> > > >anyone else was involved. Or do you believe
> that
> > > the
> > > >police conspired to cover up a crime? If so,
> you
> > > >should contact them and present your evidence.
> > > > The definition of suicide is a death by
> > > un-natural
> > > >means when no other person is involved. The
> police
> > > >investigated and found it to be one. Why do you
> > > NEED
> > > >to cling to the hate crime thing with no
> evidence
> > > to
> > > >support it?
> > > >
> > > >Also, you apparently are privy to evidence
> about
> > > the
> > > >more recent murder that hasn't been made
> public.
> > > What
> > > >has been made public is that the unfortunate
> soul
> > > >disappeared and his remains were found. Have
> you
> > > >contacted the police and had your information
> > > looked
> > > >into?
> > > >If you have and they have ignored it, then you
> have
> > > a
> > > >valid complaint.
> > > >If you have just privately decided that this
> was a
> > > >hate murder with no evidence then you're just
> > > blowing
> > > >smoke.
> > > >As for the people saying that this was not a
> hate
> > > >crime and tht the fellow might be still alive.
> I
> > > also
> > > >recall friends being quoted as saying that it
> was
> > > >possible he had left the state to pursue acting
> in
> > > >other areas. When a person disappears, law
> > > enforcement
> > > >and the general public always theorize as to
> all
> > > the
> > > >possibilities. I'm sure many wanted to believe
> he
> > > was
> > > >still alive. Was this speculation hateful?
> Should a
> > > >hate crime be the only reason a gay person goes
> > > >missing? What about all the other possiblities?
> > > Just
> > > >leaving on a whim for whatever reason, murder
> with
> > > >robbery as a motive, a serial killing, a
> lover's
> > > >quarrel, jealousy, insurance fraud. There could
> be
> > > a
> > > >million reasons that could be speculated about.
> Why
> > > >should a bias crime be the only reason? Not
> only
> > > would
> > > >this thinking hamper a police investigation it
> > > plain
> > > >doesn't make any sense.
> > > >TL
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Also,
> > > >--- Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The Incident has not been dealt with
> > > appropiately.
> > > > >
> > > > > None of the students were even punished.
> Three
> > > of
> > > > > the four are still
> > > > > attending UI and can run for office. The
> other
> > > one
> > > > > is in Law school
> > > > > attending Pepperdine University. The
> University
> > > > > handeled this about as well
> > > > > as it does its finances.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't have the evidence, because it was
> > > squashed
> > > > > by the University when
> > > > > Hal Godwin said he was not a student at UI.
> But
> > > I
> > > > > know it was, all the other
> > > > > evidence points to it. Why is that they have
> not
> > > > > asked the person who
> > > > > murdered him why he killed him?
> > > > >
> > > > > The Moscow police department was not as
> advanced
> > > > > then as it is today. It
> > > > > took them three days to find his car that
> was
> > > parked
> > > > > illegally in the Moscow
> > > > > Hotel Parking lot. I mean da!
> > > > >
> > > > > Most the people that have been parading that
> it
> > > was
> > > > > NOT a hate crime also
> > > > > were saying he was still alive and they saw
> him
> > > at
> > > > > the palouse mall just
> > > > > last week, they shut up when they found his
> > > remains
> > > > > in the woods.
> > > > >
> > > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>
> > > > > >Reply-To: <thansen@moscow.com>
> > > > > >To: "Donovan Arnold"
> > > <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>,
> > > > > <timlohr@yahoo.com>,
> > > > > ><susant@uidaho.edu>
> > > > > >CC: <vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on the
> > > Palouse
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:51:11 -0800
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Mr. Arnold -
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Do you have any evidence of these
> allegations
> > > of
> > > > > yours? The incident
> > > > > >concerning the Gay Alliance flag has been
> dealt
> > > > > with. Although I am
> > > > > >convinced that the murder of the gay UI
> student
> > > was
> > > > > a hate crime, there
> > > > > >were
> > > > > >several subscribers on this list who
> disagree
> > > with
> > > > > me.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Tom Hansen
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com
> > > > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> > > > > > > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> > > > > > > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:27 PM
> > > > > > > To: timlohr@yahoo.com; susant@uidaho.edu
> > > > > > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on
> the
> > > > > Palouse
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tim, where has your head been, or need I
> > > ask?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Let's see hate crimes in Moscow Idaho,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Three Asian students told get out of
> living
> > > > > group because it
> > > > > > > needs to be an
> > > > > > > all white hall--2003
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gay-Straight Alliance Flag burned by
> student
> > > > > government--2002
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Two hispanic kids called spickes and
> > > followed
> > > > > and beaten on way home
> > > > > >from
> > > > > > > Mardi Gras--2001
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Gay teen disappears and remains of body
> > > > > found--1997-2002
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Body of Middle Eastern foreign exchange
> > > student
> > > > > found hung at UI
> > > > > > > Arboretum---1995
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Tim, I find your remarks
> outrageous,bigoted,
> > > > > insensitive to these
> > > > > > > individuals and their families, and most
> of
> > > all
> > > > > arrogant of the recent
> > > > > > > history in Palouse.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann <timlohr@yahoo.com>
> > > > > > > >To: Susan Troyano <susant@uidaho.edu>
> > > > > > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on
> the
> > > > > Palouse
> > > > > > > >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:11:03 -0800
> (PST)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >It's all coming back to me now---this
> isn't
> > > the
> > > > > first
> > > > > > > >time for this stuff round here.
> > > > > > > > It was late Oct. a crisp, cold
> nightfall
> > > saw
> > > > > a rash
> > > > > > > >of nightmarish hate crimes hit the
> Palouse.
> > > > > > > >The carnage and destruction defied
> > > > > comprehension,
> > > > > > > >pumpkins smashed, toilet paper in
> trees,
> > > eggs
> > > > > thrown
> > > > > > > >with abandon.
> > > > > > > >Ohhh....the hate, the subhuman tribal
> > > animosity
> > > > > of it
> > > > > > > >all.
> > > > > > > > Halloween? Oh, ok.
> > > > > > > > Never mind.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >=====
> > > > > > > >Tim L
> > > > > > > >"If you're not paranoid, you're not
> paying
> > > > > attention"
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >__________________________________________________
> > > > > > > >Do you Yahoo!?
> > > > > > > >Yahoo! Tax Center - File online,
> > > calculators,
> > > > > forms, and more
> > > > > > > >http://tax.yahoo.com
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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