[Vision2020] Hate Crime on the Palouse
Tim Lohrmann
timlohr@yahoo.com
Fri, 4 Apr 2003 22:40:25 -0800 (PST)
Donovan,
I didn't say anything about someone's being drunk
excuses anything they do--you said that. Drunk or not,
they deserved punishment for their acts.
You go through a lot of extraneous detail, but the
bottom line is you and I simply disagree. You think
the punishment was inadequate I thought it fit the
crime. Which at the bottom line, let's face it
resulted in the destruction of a flat. That's it. No
murder, no assault, no injuries. It seems to me that
many college transgressions are treated similarly.
What would you have done to these guys? Years in
prison? Castration? What?
I see that you did know the fellow that was
apparently murdered and that some evidence was found
or spoiled.
However, you don't mention anything that makes
it into a hate crime--that's what we were discussing.
I didn't really understand what you wrote about
the fellow who hung himself. Do you now believe there
was a chance it was NOT a lynching? If so, why did you
say it was? I don't get it. If there was a possibility
that he was just unhappy and NOT lynched, as you
mentioned, why would you say positively that he was
killed by some hater, as you did originally?
Anyway, the bottom line is you think I'm a bigot
because I would rather look at and find the reasons
for a crime rather than just scream "HATE!" anytime
anything unpleasant happens.
That's your right, call me anything you want--except
late for dinner.
It just seems counterproductive to always see demons
where there's no reason to believe they exist. Don't
forget the little boy who cried wolf.
TL
--- Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com> wrote:
> TL,
>
> Actually, I don't think you understand much at
> all. I personally know all
> four of the guys that were involved with the flag
> burning incident. Kasey
> Swisher, Kevin Smith, Matt Henman, and Joel
> Sturgill. I was the ASUI Senator
> that told on them. I was with them about five hours
> before they went and
> burned the flag. I was a senator at the time and was
> the one that called the
> press.
>
> Why? It wasn't because it was the flag at all. It
> was because they used
> their positions of authority and privilege of access
> to steal student
> property, destroy it, and used their positions to
> cover it up. Had they not
> lied about it and covered it up then it would not
> have been that big of a
> deal had they come clean. I told them two hours
> before I called the press
> that if they came out and confessed I would help
> them through it. They said
> no that they would not publicly admit to it. And
> they threatened me not to
> say anything, but I didn't care. It is bullshit
> (pardon my french) for them
> to try to get away with such an abusive act.
>
> Kevin Smith lied that he still had the flag to a
> police officer, and the
> threatening of a charge of "obstruction of justice"
> was the only thing that
> got him to go get the flag from his bedroom.
>
> Their punishment was a weekend in jail, probation
> and an apology. I know
> much more then the paper prints about this. Nor do I
> hate the individuals
> that did this, just what they did.
>
> In terms of them being drunk, well geez, is that
> really an excuse when it is
> a crime for them to drink anyway? Is rape ok when
> drunk, is killing a
> pedestrian when drunk ok? Absolutely not, being
> drunk is absolutely no
> excuse EVER!
>
> I also doubt they were that drunk, considering the
> complicated act of
> walking all the way from SAE House to the Commons,
> putting your card into a
> slot, then going to the third floor, using your card
> again, walking down the
> hall way, grabbing the flag, then walking all the
> way back to SAE, going to
> the third floor with nobody seeing the flag in a
> house full of 100 people,
> then climbing through a small window, burning the
> flag, then taking it to a
> far away dumpster to dispose of it, then later
> returning to the dumpster,
> walking all the way back to your house, and then
> hiding it in your room.
> Gee, sounds like they were really wasted! Smart
> enough and coordinated
> enough to do all that, cover up the crime, and not
> smart enough to realize
> what they were doing was wrong? You will buy
> anything won't you TL?
>
>
> In terms of the gay indian boy that disappeared and
> the body was found,
> well, my sister was his neighbor at the time, and
> friend, he worked for my
> uncle, and my sister and friends saw him just before
> he disappeared. So yes,
> I know first hand information about that. The police
> at the time ruined the
> evidence because they refused to investigate the
> issue until about five days
> after his disappearance. So all the evidence is
> gone, the police blew it
> off, and because of it, a murder will most likely
> never be solved unless
> forensic scientists can find something where his
> body has been dumped. When
> a shoe is found on the Moscow-Pullman hi-way, it is
> a strong freaking clue
> that he did not get lost in the woods, lie down, and
> die.
>
> In terms of the boy that hung himself, well, I am
> sure he was just really
> happy about his life here and his treatment by other
> colleagues that caused
> him to just want to live. Either that or he was a
> manic depressive and
> everyone was really nice to him. Either way,
> something went wrong. Just
> because the police rule something doesn't mean it is
> fact. When I was going
> to Moscow High School half the police force only had
> GED's. Not the best
> education for investigating homicide.
>
> Tom, this is a small town and I know what I am
> talking about, my family has
> been here a long time. The Moscow Cemetry holds my
> Grandfather, Great
> Grandfather,Great Grandmother, as well as dozens of
> cousins, aunts, great
> aunts,and a whole host of other relatives.
>
> Donovan Arnold
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: Tim Lohrmann <timlohr@yahoo.com>
> >To: Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>
> >CC: vision2020@moscow.com
> >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on the Palouse
> >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 14:59:24 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Donavan,
> >Actually, I understood that a couple of the guys
> >involved in this flag deal were suspended and spent
> >some time in the Latah Co. jail.
> > I'm not sure what you'd have UI do. Should it be
> >prison time for attempting to burn a flag and then
> >throwing it in a dumpster? Or should we tatoo a red
> >letter on them? What?
> > Boorish and childish behavior, yes.
> > But let's let the punishment fit the crime.
> These
> >guys didn't kill anyone, nor was anyone hurt. They
> got
> >drunk and acted like idiots and have been punished
> for
> >it--despite your refusal to believe it.
> >
> >As for the guy found hanging in the arboreteum, the
> >police looked into the case and determined it was a
> >suicide. But from what you wrote in one of the
> other
> >posts, you would assume it was a hate-lynching
> unless
> >it is proven otherwise. Suicides are tragic enough
> >without assuming some grand conspiracy every time
> one
> >occurs. You mentioned there were no witnesses. The
> >police also determined that there was no evidence
> >anyone else was involved. Or do you believe that
> the
> >police conspired to cover up a crime? If so, you
> >should contact them and present your evidence.
> > The definition of suicide is a death by
> un-natural
> >means when no other person is involved. The police
> >investigated and found it to be one. Why do you
> NEED
> >to cling to the hate crime thing with no evidence
> to
> >support it?
> >
> >Also, you apparently are privy to evidence about
> the
> >more recent murder that hasn't been made public.
> What
> >has been made public is that the unfortunate soul
> >disappeared and his remains were found. Have you
> >contacted the police and had your information
> looked
> >into?
> >If you have and they have ignored it, then you have
> a
> >valid complaint.
> >If you have just privately decided that this was a
> >hate murder with no evidence then you're just
> blowing
> >smoke.
> >As for the people saying that this was not a hate
> >crime and tht the fellow might be still alive. I
> also
> >recall friends being quoted as saying that it was
> >possible he had left the state to pursue acting in
> >other areas. When a person disappears, law
> enforcement
> >and the general public always theorize as to all
> the
> >possibilities. I'm sure many wanted to believe he
> was
> >still alive. Was this speculation hateful? Should a
> >hate crime be the only reason a gay person goes
> >missing? What about all the other possiblities?
> Just
> >leaving on a whim for whatever reason, murder with
> >robbery as a motive, a serial killing, a lover's
> >quarrel, jealousy, insurance fraud. There could be
> a
> >million reasons that could be speculated about. Why
> >should a bias crime be the only reason? Not only
> would
> >this thinking hamper a police investigation it
> plain
> >doesn't make any sense.
> >TL
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Also,
> >--- Donovan Arnold <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > The Incident has not been dealt with
> appropiately.
> > >
> > > None of the students were even punished. Three
> of
> > > the four are still
> > > attending UI and can run for office. The other
> one
> > > is in Law school
> > > attending Pepperdine University. The University
> > > handeled this about as well
> > > as it does its finances.
> > >
> > > I don't have the evidence, because it was
> squashed
> > > by the University when
> > > Hal Godwin said he was not a student at UI. But
> I
> > > know it was, all the other
> > > evidence points to it. Why is that they have not
> > > asked the person who
> > > murdered him why he killed him?
> > >
> > > The Moscow police department was not as advanced
> > > then as it is today. It
> > > took them three days to find his car that was
> parked
> > > illegally in the Moscow
> > > Hotel Parking lot. I mean da!
> > >
> > > Most the people that have been parading that it
> was
> > > NOT a hate crime also
> > > were saying he was still alive and they saw him
> at
> > > the palouse mall just
> > > last week, they shut up when they found his
> remains
> > > in the woods.
> > >
> > > Donovan Arnold
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "Tom Hansen" <thansen@moscow.com>
> > > >Reply-To: <thansen@moscow.com>
> > > >To: "Donovan Arnold"
> <donovanarnold@hotmail.com>,
> > > <timlohr@yahoo.com>,
> > > ><susant@uidaho.edu>
> > > >CC: <vision2020@moscow.com>
> > > >Subject: RE: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on the
> Palouse
> > > >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:51:11 -0800
> > > >
> > > >Mr. Arnold -
> > > >
> > > >Do you have any evidence of these allegations
> of
> > > yours? The incident
> > > >concerning the Gay Alliance flag has been dealt
> > > with. Although I am
> > > >convinced that the murder of the gay UI student
> was
> > > a hate crime, there
> > > >were
> > > >several subscribers on this list who disagree
> with
> > > me.
> > > >
> > > >Tom Hansen
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: vision2020-admin@moscow.com
> > > [mailto:vision2020-admin@moscow.com]On
> > > > > Behalf Of Donovan Arnold
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 12:27 PM
> > > > > To: timlohr@yahoo.com; susant@uidaho.edu
> > > > > Cc: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > > > Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on the
> > > Palouse
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim, where has your head been, or need I
> ask?
> > > > >
> > > > > Let's see hate crimes in Moscow Idaho,
> > > > >
> > > > > Three Asian students told get out of living
> > > group because it
> > > > > needs to be an
> > > > > all white hall--2003
> > > > >
> > > > > Gay-Straight Alliance Flag burned by student
> > > government--2002
> > > > >
> > > > > Two hispanic kids called spickes and
> followed
> > > and beaten on way home
> > > >from
> > > > > Mardi Gras--2001
> > > > >
> > > > > Gay teen disappears and remains of body
> > > found--1997-2002
> > > > >
> > > > > Body of Middle Eastern foreign exchange
> student
> > > found hung at UI
> > > > > Arboretum---1995
> > > > >
> > > > > Tim, I find your remarks outrageous,bigoted,
> > > insensitive to these
> > > > > individuals and their families, and most of
> all
> > > arrogant of the recent
> > > > > history in Palouse.
> > > > >
> > > > > Donovan Arnold
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >From: Tim Lohrmann <timlohr@yahoo.com>
> > > > > >To: Susan Troyano <susant@uidaho.edu>
> > > > > >CC: vision2020@moscow.com
> > > > > >Subject: Re: [Vision2020] Hate Crime on the
> > > Palouse
> > > > > >Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 11:11:03 -0800 (PST)
> > > > > >
> > > > > >It's all coming back to me now---this isn't
> the
> > > first
> > > > > >time for this stuff round here.
> > > > > > It was late Oct. a crisp, cold nightfall
> saw
> > > a rash
> > > > > >of nightmarish hate crimes hit the Palouse.
> > > > > >The carnage and destruction defied
> > > comprehension,
> > > > > >pumpkins smashed, toilet paper in trees,
> eggs
> > > thrown
> > > > > >with abandon.
> > > > > >Ohhh....the hate, the subhuman tribal
> animosity
> > > of it
> > > > > >all.
> > > > > > Halloween? Oh, ok.
> > > > > > Never mind.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >=====
> > > > > >Tim L
> > > > > >"If you're not paranoid, you're not paying
> > > attention"
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> >__________________________________________________
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> > >
> >
>
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