[CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Weintraub, Lee
lweintraub at bplegal.com
Wed Dec 13 10:20:13 PST 2017
Good point. If anyone is interested in writing for ActionLine on this, please let me, Cary Wright, Brett Henson or Kellie Humphries know. We would love to get you published (anyone except Dan! ☺)
From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of William J. Tinsley, Jr. (7590)
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 1:01 PM
To: 'Jeffrey Price' <jeff at npw-law.com>; Dan Vega <DVega at TEVTLaw.com>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
To all:
Just a thought: With all the genuine effort and time put into these e-mails concerning this topic over the past few days, I respectfully suggest that someone with a vested interest in this topic now has plenty of material and diverse opinions to draft a timely and worthwhile article. In fact, it might be interesting just to string the e-mails together (with some minor edits) for publication.
Thanks to all who participated. I agree that it is an issue that needs to be resolved. Plus, I have enjoyed reading the e-mails.
Regards,
Bill
_____________________________
William James Tinsley, Jr.
Phelps Dunbar LLP
100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1900
Tampa, FL 33602
Direct: 813-472-7590
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Email: william.tinsley at phelps.com<mailto:william.tinsley at phelps.com>
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From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Price
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 11:50 AM
To: Dan Vega
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Dan: Really?
So “small Mom & Pop Construction companies” should be free to act in whatever manner they see fit so long as it saves them money?
The Mom & Pop Qualifier had to become licensed and then take 14 hours of CE. Where (at least in our classes) they are told in the 1 hr. Laws and Regulations and the 1 hr. Business Practices sections that they need to file an NTO, and if not paid, a lien within 90 days of their last day of work. They think they are owed, let’s say, $5,000. So, they figure paying $50 to an NTO company for a lien is a good bet as opposed to paying $250 to a local attorney who just might ask some questions that saves them terrific heartache in the future.
Mom & Pop are acting in their best interests. Well, Mom & Pop deserve whatever happens to them and their lien.
And the NTO company? They have a limitation of liability saying the extent of the damages they may cause is the $50. I wish I could get that deal. Oh, wait. I’m not allowed to sign a contract that limits my professional liability.
Let’s look closely at what a NTO company brings to the table:
Mom & Pop provide all the information for the NTO – if its wrong, too bad.
The NTO company puts that information, good, bad or indifferent, on a statutory form and mails it only to the people Mom & Pop identified.
Did they confirm anything? No. Is the actual Owner correct? Maybe, maybe not.
Did they limit their liability to the $35 cost of the service? Yes.
Are they anything other than a mail forwarding service? No.
Now you want the NTO people to do a lien?
Where do they get their information? How do they confirm it? Do Mom & Pop get the presumption that the law allows that the lien is correct? Any safe-harbor?
If you want to run a construction business, then run it right. If Mom & Pop’s margins are so tight they can’t afford a lawyer for the occasional lien, they have priced themselves out of the market and out of business. If they have numerous liens, they are doing something really wrong and could use some legal advice.
Jeffrey L. Price, Esq.
Florida Bar Board Certified - Construction Law
Florida Civil-law Notary
Niesen|Price|Worthy|Campo, PA
5216 SW 91st Drive Gainesville, FL 32608
Ph (352) 373-9031 Fax (352) 373-9099
http://npw-law.com<http://npw-law.com/>
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From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 11:19 AM
To: Jeffrey Price <jeff at npw-law.com<mailto:jeff at npw-law.com>>
Cc: Robert Worman <rworman at wormanlaw.com<mailto:rworman at wormanlaw.com>>; Fred Barnes <fred at fcbarneslaw.com<mailto:fred at fcbarneslaw.com>>; Brown, Gary L. <gary.brown at saul.com<mailto:gary.brown at saul.com>>; Larry Leiby <Leiby at mkpalaw.com<mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com>>; Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz at herniczlegal.com<mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com>>; Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>>; clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
All that will do is hurt small Mom and pop construction companies.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
On Dec 13, 2017, at 11:17 AM, Jeffrey Price <jeff at npw-law.com<mailto:jeff at npw-law.com>> wrote:
Harrumph! I agree.
It is in the best interests of our profession and the public to weed out these NTO companies who abuse the UPL rules and this is easy to do.
Jeffrey L. Price, Esq.
Florida Bar Board Certified - Construction Law
Florida Civil-law Notary
Niesen|Price|Worthy|Campo, PA
5216 SW 91st Drive Gainesville, FL 32608
Ph (352) 373-9031 Fax (352) 373-9099
http://npw-law.com<http://npw-law.com/>
<image003.png><image001.jpg> <image002.jpg> This communication is intended for the sole use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If the reader of this communication is not the intended recipient, employee or agent responsible for delivering the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please immediately notify me by telephone, delete this communication, and destroy any copies of it. Thank you.
From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Robert Worman
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 10:25 AM
To: Fred Barnes <fred at fcbarneslaw.com<mailto:fred at fcbarneslaw.com>>; 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown at saul.com<mailto:gary.brown at saul.com>>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby at mkpalaw.com<mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com>>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz at herniczlegal.com<mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com>>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Members,
For over 40 years I have been associated with and legal counsel to the National Association of Credit Management of Florida, Inc. (NACM-South Atlantic), which has been one the major preparers of NTO’s and in the forefront with NACM Tampa, Inc. in trying to improve construction lien, bond and related legislation. For years I have advised my client that it cannot prepare or liens and NNP’s, all the while seeing other NTO companies doing so with relative impunity. The most recent instances brought out by Barry Kalmanson may only be the tip of the iceberg.
While I do not want to beat this topic to death, it seems to me this is one of those issues where we have an ethical obligation to report to The Bar when we see instances of this type of unauthorized practice of law. Maybe the CLC should have a subcommittee created to act as a clearing house our members can contact to report on instances where they run across liens or NNP’s that appear to be the result of the unauthorized practice of law. This subcommittee could review for probable cause, and then pass on it to the UPL Committee when we find a credible complaint?
Regards,
Robert B. Worman
Worman & Sheffler, P.A.
2707 West Fairbanks Avenue
Suite 200
Winter Park, FL 32789
407 843-5353
rworman at wormanlaw.com<mailto:rworman at wormanlaw.com>
www.wormanlaw.com<http://www.wormanlaw.com/>
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From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 2:36 PM
To: 'Brown, Gary L.' <gary.brown at saul.com<mailto:gary.brown at saul.com>>; 'Larry Leiby' <Leiby at mkpalaw.com<mailto:Leiby at mkpalaw.com>>; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.' <Chernicz at herniczlegal.com<mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com>>; 'Dan Vega' <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Ah!
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.com<http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/>
<image008.png>
From: Brown, Gary L. [mailto:gary.brown at saul.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 1:34 PM
To: Fred Barnes; 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: RE: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
“Scienter”. Now that’s a term I haven’t heard since criminal law class in law school Fred! Thanks for that. Brought back great memories of the class and professor. One of my favorite classes.
Sorry this has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but everyone has already beat this horse to death ☺.
<image009.jpg>
Gary L. Brown | Partner
Board Certified in Construction Law
SAUL EWING ARNSTEIN & LEHR LLP
200 E. Las Olas Blvd., Suite 1000 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.713.7615 | Fax: 954.713.7715
gary.brown at saul.com<mailto:gary.brown at saul.com> | www.saul.com<http://www.saul.com/>
* Please note that our Firm name and my email address have changed.
From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Fred Barnes
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 10:07 AM
To: 'Larry Leiby'; 'Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.'; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Let me chime in as a late-comer to the discussion.
It seems to me that there is no valid reason to invalidate the lien. The non-lawyer lien-preparer may be subject to prosecution for the unauthorized practice of law, but what is the rational for penalizing the lienor? Aiding and abetting the unauthorized practice of law? I doubt scienter could be established.
Frederick C. Barnes, Esq.
Board Certified Construction Lawyer
500 N. Maitland Ave., Suite 305
Maitland, FL 32751
(407) 865-9200
www.fcbarneslaw.com<http://www.fcbarneslaw.com/>
<image008.png>
From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Larry Leiby
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:51 AM
To: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.; 'Dan Vega'; 'Weintraub, Lee'
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
The issue is that the Florida Bar doesn’t want non lawyers giving legal advice. The landmark case on this was Florida Bar v Carmel. Where a notice company puts that they prepared the lien on the lien it is red meat for the Bar unlicensed practice of law committee. That is why they simply put the customer’s name as preparer. A non lawyer can prepare a contract, or prepare a lien for itself. The notice companies, and anyone else, are prohibited from practicing law or giving legal advice to others. Some notice companies refer requests for claim of lien to counsel to avoid the issue. Some notice companies simply prepare the lien for their customers, which is prohibited to the extent that the notice company makes legal decisions. Preparing a claim of lien is fraught with legal decisions.
I see the notice companies running afoul of the law, yet in many instances helping their customers. When they screw up it is going to come back to bite them. Also, any owner can claim that the lien is invalid due to being prepared by a nonlawyer (if that is established, likely by deposition). Whether a court will invalidate such a lien is still an open question. The possibility is there.
Happy Holidays, Larry
From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Charles B. Hernicz, Esq.
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:34 AM
To: 'Dan Vega' <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>>; 'Weintraub, Lee' <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>>
Cc: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
If the notice company informed those subs that Florida law prohibits notice companies from preparing claims of lien, they would likely reconsider relying on the notice company for legal advice.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:27 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz at herniczlegal.com<mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com>>; clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
So if a non lawyer Non lienor drafts contract, and lienor signs it, the contract is not valid???
Guys, there are many subs who rely on the notice companies to perfect their claims, especially in South Florida.
As long as lienor signs the lien, the law presumes he/she read doc and agreed to it. Fact that lienor did not fill in blanks on a lien form, is inconsequential. On the other hand, invalidating a lien based on same may be catastrophic to the lienor, its employees and the company as a whole.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:20 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>> wrote:
In litigation. They draft their own contracts all the time.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 9:17 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz at herniczlegal.com<mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com>>; clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Lienors are usually companies. Companies cannot rep themselves.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
On Dec 12, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>> wrote:
Because a lienor, like any client, can represent itself (other than in litigation of course). But if a company holds itself out as an expert to others and receives compensation for its services, it needs to know how to do it. NTO companies don’t know how to handle complex property title issues or figure out what’s lienable and what’s non-lienable, among other issues.
From: Dan Vega [mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 8:48 AM
To: Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>>
Cc: Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz at herniczlegal.com<mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com>>; clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: Re: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
But if lienor prepares lien it’s ok?
Makes no sense
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:25 AM, Weintraub, Lee <lweintraub at bplegal.com<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>> wrote:
The attorney general held it does matter. Drafting of liens requires legal analyses that could screw a lienor who relies upon such analysis performed by a non-lawyer.
Sent from my iPhone
Lee A. Weintraub
Shareholder
Board Certified in Construction Law
Chair, Public Private Partnerships Practice Group
Vice Chair, Construction Law and Litigation Practice Group
1 East Broward Blvd., Suite 1800 | Fort Lauderdale, FL 33301
Tel: 954.985.4147 | Fax: 954.985.4176 | E-Mail<mailto:lweintraub at bplegal.com>
Website<http://www.bplegal.com> | Connect on LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/pub/lee-weintraub/1b/a0b/813> | Follow Me on Twitter<http://twitter.com/leeweintraub>
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On Dec 12, 2017, at 8:21 AM, Dan Vega <DVega at TEVTLaw.com<mailto:DVega at TEVTLaw.com>> wrote:
Does it matter who prepares the lien form so long as lienor signs it?
The notice companies provide a valuable service to many small companies who otherwise would likely blow their lien rights.
Sent from my iPhone
Daniel R. Vega
Board Certified in Construction Law
Taylor Espino Vega & Touron, P.A.
2555 Ponce De Leon Blvd., Suite 220
Coral Gables, Florida 33134
Telephone: (305) 443-2043
Facsimile: (305) 443-2048
Cell: (305) 962-5186
E-mail: dvega at tevtlaw.com<mailto:dvega at tevtlaw.com>
On Dec 12, 2017, at 7:41 AM, Charles B. Hernicz, Esq. <Chernicz at herniczlegal.com<mailto:Chernicz at herniczlegal.com>> wrote:
Notice companies in Florida regularly prepare claims of lien in violation of Section 713.08(2); now they jut put the company’s name in the “Return to” block but are still in clear violation of this prohibition.
Board Certified in Construction Law by The Florida Bar
Hernicz Legal Services, P.L.
1460 Wood Row Way
Wellington, FL 33414
Telephone: (561) 753-7511
Facsimile: (561) 753-7082
Chernicz at HerniczLegal.com
From: clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org> [mailto:clc-discussion-bounces at lists.flabarrpptl.org] On Behalf Of Barry Kalmanson
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 4:34 PM
To: clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org<mailto:clc-discussion at lists.flabarrpptl.org>
Subject: [CLC-Discussion] Fwd: Online Lien Co. Hits Ohio State Bar With Antitrust Suit
Interesting reading attached regarding a company known as Zlien operating throughout Florida.
After reading the opinion/agreement you may want to look at Section 713.08(2) Florida Statutes.
Sincerely,
Barry Kalmanson
500 N Maitland Avenue
Suite 305
Maitland, Fl. 32751
407-645-4500 x 215
www.barrykalmanson.com<http://www.barrykalmanson.com>
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