<div dir="auto">Ok. This is good.</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:53 PM Mark Anderson <<a href="mailto:marka@mbaesq.com">marka@mbaesq.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="word-wrap:break-word">
<div class="m_2120555398324227984WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060">Here are older examples of a Declaration of Trust and a Certificate of Trust. (Yes, they’re from California, too, but they might help nevertheless).<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222a35">Mark B. Anderson<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#222a35">ANDERSON LAW FIRM PLLC<br>
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/821+Dock+St+Ste+209?entry=gmail&source=g">821 Dock St</a> <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/821+Dock+St+Ste+209?entry=gmail&source=g">Ste 209</a> PMB 4-12<br>
Tacoma, Washington 98402<br>
+1 253-327-1750<br>
+1 253-327-1751 (fax)<br>
<a href="mailto:marka@mbaesq.com" target="_blank">marka@mbaesq.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.mbaesq.com/" target="_blank">www.mbaesq.com</a><b><u></u><u></u></b></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif;color:#002060">CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE<br>
</span></b><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial Narrow",sans-serif;color:#002060">This transmission is confidential and is intended solely for the use of the individual named recipient. It may be protected by the attorney-client privilege, work
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If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender via e-mail or by telephone at (253) 327-1750 that you have received the message in error, and then delete it. Thank you.</span><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial",sans-serif;color:#002060"><u></u> <u></u></span></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> <a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Doran<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 7, 2021 12:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Real Property Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBARP] Testamentary Trust<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt">Interesting. I do not have a “certification of trust” format. Can you provide me with such a document?<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:10.0pt">On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 12:05 PM Joshua McKarcher <<a href="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com" target="_blank">josh@mckarcherlaw.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in">
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Jim,</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I have never done (or seen) a separate document purporting to restate or implement a testamentary trust. In my
mind, the trust is created by the will and its terms are limited to those found in the will and applicable law (which I would not try to state in a document form, I guess, personally).</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I would instead create a certification of trust stating the usual terms, maybe the EIN obtained, maybe the probate
case number in which the will is filed/probated, and then perhaps attaching as exhibits excerpts of the will that contain the relevant trust language (even including administrative provisions if necessary/helpful). (I might attach the entire will since it’s
public record, but if it were preferable NOT to include some portion to make it “harder if not impossible” for someone to get ahold of, then an excerpt would be fine.)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">I would be reluctant personally to try to draft a new document that does anything more than certifies the existence
of the trust and its terms (per the will, not “new” ones)<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/537+6th+Street+%0D%0A+Clarkston,+WA+99403?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">
</a>as described above.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/537%0D%0A+6th+Street+%0D%0A+Clarkston,%0D%0A+WA+99403?entry=gmail&source=g">
</a><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">All the best, Josh</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">Joshua D. McKarcher</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">McKarcher Law PLLC</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/537+6th+Street+%0D%0A+Clarkston,+WA+99403?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">537
6th Street</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/537+6th+Street+%0D%0A+Clarkston,+WA+99403?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">Clarkston,
WA 99403</a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(509) 758-3345</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif">(509) 758-3314 (fax)</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="mailto:josh@mckarcherlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">josh@mckarcherlaw.com</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"><a href="http://www.mckarcherlaw.com" target="_blank"><span style="color:#0563c1">www.mckarcherlaw.com</span></a></span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman",serif"> </span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #e1e1e1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b>From:</b>
<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a> <<a href="mailto:wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbarp-bounces@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>>
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Jim Doran<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, September 7, 2021 10:12 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> WSBA Real Property Listserv <<a href="mailto:wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com" target="_blank">wsbarp@lists.wsbarppt.com</a>><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [WSBARP] Testamentary Trust<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">John:</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">We are no at the point where the testator has died and the Trust terms become effective. I usually create the now Irrevocable Trust that mirrors
the language in the Will. But the new Irrevocable trust is a stand alone document. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Someone has suggested that I can just use the Will with the Testamentary Trust as the actual Irrevocable Trust. I am not very comfortable with that.
It seems to me that the new Irrevocable Trust should be its own document. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">James</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt"><br clear="all">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">James R. Doran<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Attorney at Law<u></u><u></u></p>
</div><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+%0D%0ASuite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">
</a><p class="MsoNormal">100<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+%0D%0ASuite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">
</a><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">
E. Pine Street -</a> <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">
Suite 205</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">Bellingham, WA 98225</a><br>
(360)393-9506<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jim@doranlegal.com" target="_blank">jim@doranlegal.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.doranlegal.com" target="_blank">www.doranlegal.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 9:57 AM John J. Sullivan <<a href="mailto:sullaw@comcast.net" target="_blank">sullaw@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0in;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Jim: <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Most of my wills contain all of the language governing a testamentary credit shelter/bypass or QTIP/Marital trust for a surviving spouse. Same with minor or GST trusts for descendants
or SNT’s. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">My pour over wills obviously “pour over” into RLTs, which can themselves have the same testamentary trust provisions as my wills. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">In the interests of minimizing documents (that sometimes sprout legs and walk away) I try to limit my planning to as few documents as necessary, unless there is a good reason otherwise. <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">John J. Sullivan<u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sent from my iPad<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><u></u> <u></u></p>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">On Sep 7, 2021, at 9:19 AM, Jim Doran <<a href="mailto:jim@doranlegal.com" target="_blank">jim@doranlegal.com</a>> wrote:<u></u><u></u></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">I might have to learn something today. I try not to.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">We all know that Testamentary Trusts are contained in a Will by the testator. The terms of the Trust may be well spelled out or general, depending
on how the Will was drafted. I have been advised that if the Will spells out the terms of the Trust in good detail then that Will with the Testamentary Trust can be used as the Trust itself. </span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">I have always thought that the Will directs the Executor/Personal Representative to set up a Trust to conform with the directions in the Will. As
a result, my practice has been to draft a Trust with the provisions directed by the Will and more of the standard Trust language and have the Executor/Personal Representative, who is now the Grantor/Trustor, set up, execute and fund the newly drafted Trust.</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">Is this how you learned Trust attorneys do it? Or can the Will with Testamentary Trust language become the Trust document itself?</span><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.5pt">James Doran<br clear="all">
</span><u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">James R. Doran<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Attorney at Law<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">100
<a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">
E. Pine Street -</a> <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">
Suite 205</a><u></u><u></u></p><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+%0D%0ASuite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">
</a></div><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+%0D%0ASuite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">
</a><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g" target="_blank">Bellingham, WA 98225</a><br>
(360)393-9506<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jim@doranlegal.com" target="_blank">jim@doranlegal.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.doranlegal.com" target="_blank">www.doranlegal.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">-- <u></u><u></u></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">James R. Doran<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Attorney at Law<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal">100 <a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+%0D%0ASuite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">E. Pine Street -</a> Suite 205<u></u><u></u></p><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">
</a></div><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+Suite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">
</a><p class="MsoNormal"><a href="https://www.google.com/maps/search/E.+Pine+Street+-+%0D%0ASuite+205+%0D%0A+%0D%0A+Bellingham,+WA+98225?entry=gmail&source=g">Bellingham, WA 98225</a><br>
(360)393-9506<u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="mailto:jim@doranlegal.com" target="_blank">jim@doranlegal.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><a href="http://www.doranlegal.com" target="_blank">www.doranlegal.com</a><u></u><u></u></p>
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<a href="http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbarp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://mailman.fsr.com/mailman/listinfo/wsbarp</a></blockquote></div></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div>James R. Doran<br></div>Attorney at Law<br></div>100 E. Pine Street - Suite 205<br></div>Bellingham, WA 98225<br>(360)393-9506<br></div><a href="mailto:jim@doranlegal.com" target="_blank">jim@doranlegal.com</a><br></div><a href="http://www.doranlegal.com" target="_blank">www.doranlegal.com</a><br></div></div>